Brexit!! Yeah, it's a thing now..

[FluffyMcDeath]

But, as far as common sense environmental protection laws are concerned, which, as I mentioned, can have immense positive economic effects, the United Kingdom does quite literally have an extremely "shitty" track record so the likelihood that things are going to improve or even just stay the same are rather grim ...

So are you saying that the English, much like the Afghanis and Iraqis are incapable of handling their own affairs?

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

 

[JoBBo]

So are you saying that the English, much like the Afghanis and Iraqis are incapable of handling their own affairs?

I am saying that there are important areas of public life that have seen tremendous improvements specifically because the United Kingdom was part of a larger political body.

Your argument that geographically smaller governments are always preferrable is a bit too simplistic. They can be but they do not have to be and it is worthwhile to analyze these issues with nuance.

I am wondering how those Americans who were strangley elated to hear about the United Kingdom leaving the EU feel about the renewed interest in Texas seceding from the US now...

 

[Robert]

Funnily enough, I watched that yesterday and thought, "yikes, that guy's living in a different world and obviously completely missed the campaign."
For people living here and paying attention that video is so wildly out of touch as to almost come across as a parody.

What really shaped it was a combination of things.
Yes, for a small number of people that might be a factor (and for one of my friends it actually was one of the reasons he voted Leave) but for far more people it was "bloody immigrants", "muslims" and other small minded shite.

 

[Robert]

Your argument that geographically smaller governments are always preferrable is a bit too simplistic. They can be but they do not have to be and it is worthwhile to analyze these issues with nuance.

In a nutshell.

 

[Robert]

 

[Robert]

Here's a wee flavour of what I think has "shaped the brexit vote":

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10154136581645516

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

I am wondering how those Americans who were strangley elated to hear about the United Kingdom leaving the EU feel about the renewed interest in Texas seceding from the US now...

Those ARE the Americans who were elated about the Brexit.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Yes, for a small number of people that might be a factor (and for one of my friends it actually was one of the reasons he voted Leave) but for far more people it was "bloody immigrants", "muslims" and other small minded shite.

That might seem like small minded shite but for people in areas where they feel that they are being crowded out by a foreign culture, and often one that is actively hostile to UK culture it isn't. When you get immigration at levels where people of a common foreign culture can form large groups of a different culture you lose the ability to integrate them. Ghettos become self-sustaining. And as you get more immigrants you get a fracturing of the social cohesion - divide and conquer - very useful to the ruling classes and part of the reason for unfettered immigration.
There is good reason to be suspicious of ghettoed cultures, too. When they don't need to integrate and if they naturally see themselves as being more righteous than the host population, animosities will be taught and philosophies completely antithetical to western tolerance fester. Those are real concerns that politicians seem indifferent to but they aren't the only concerns.
When you get large integrated states you get, naturally, centralized control, and thence you get even greater concentrations of wealth and power. You also have a monocropping of governance which can have efficiencies but also increases brittleness.
When every country becomes effectively a single centrally run country then the citizens don't have a choice of leaving - which is something that chastens states - when a state is too poorly run the people flee. But without this disciplining constraint the mega-state has no downside in the long term to recreate a fuedal state. The Soviet Union basically had to build walls and heavily control passports to manage flight. The EU just grows to encompass all available land so there is no-where to go. Part of the dream of Europe is that you will be able to go from any country to any other and everything will be the same, but that's also the great threat. Borders are good, local governance is good - and hopefully the people will now start to take on the job of governing which they had abdicated to the technocrats.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

And so it begins.

Oh, this just started? I don't think so. This sort of thing was going on before I left the UK in 1982. And that's not much of a crowd. I've seen bigger skinhead marches - and I've also seen bigger turnouts of aggressive Muslims especially during the "cartoon" kerfuffle. The Muslims hate the Kafirs and the Kafirs hate the Muslims - no change there.
Of course, I don't think this is the most effective way to empty mosques - I'd advocate for an end to religious schools (all of them) and have mandatory secular education in mixed schools ... but "Allah, Allah, who the fook is Allah?" is a catchy chant.

 

[Robert]

That might seem like small minded shite ....

It seems like it because for LOTS of people, that's exactly what it is.
I know people who don't even come into contact with immigrants who want to "send them home". I know other people who think being in the EU is why we have Syrian refugees and that leaving will stop them - the exact opposite of the deluded video you posted from TRNN.

As for 'muslims', the vast majority of UK muslims don't come from the EU.
The vast majority of UK muslims are UK nationals.
The vast majority of the rest come from places like Pakistan and India.

Anyone who voted to leave as a way of "getting rid of muslims" is guilty not only of small-minded shite but also of spectacularly moronic ignorance.

 

[Robert]

Oh, this just started? I don't think so. This sort of thing was going on before I left the UK in 1982. And that's not much of a crowd. I've seen bigger skinhead marches - and I've also seen bigger turnouts of aggressive Muslims especially during the "cartoon" kerfuffle. The Muslims hate the Kafirs and the Kafirs hate the Muslims - no change there.
Of course, I don't think this is the most effective way to empty mosques - I'd advocate for an end to religious schools (all of them) and have mandatory secular education in mixed schools ... but "Allah, Allah, who the fook is Allah?" is a catchy chant.

No argument with any of that. The "so it begins" part is not mine and a bit of a red herring. I posted it in response to the ludicrously out of touch "what shaped the vote" clip. From what I've seen this is a lot closer to what actually "shaped the vote".

The UK is more poisoned with xenophobia, racism and bigotry just now than I've seen for a long time, possibly ever. The gutter press (most notably the Mail and Express) have been helping stoke it up, along with politicians like Farage.
You seem to think the reasons we voted leave were for ideals like "democracy" and to free ourselves from US military interventions even though the evidence for either amounts to very little. OTOH, the evidence for ignorant xenophobia has been all around us for weeks.

 

[Robert]

The gutter press (most notably the Mail and Express) have been helping stoke it up....

Just stumbled across this montage of Mail and Express front pages, apparently all from the last six months:

 

[Wayne]

I can't help but feel that in the long run, the Brexit will work out for the UK, even if Scotland et al are dragged along kicking and screaming. I don't feel bad for Scotland though, because last year they had their chance to leave the UK and didn't take it. Now, it'll be funny to watch Scotland secede from the UK/GB by second vote because they want to stay in the EU and the EU turn around and say "no thanks, there's no advantage for us to let Scotland in by itself".

Wayne

 

[Wayne]

Then there's this;

 

[JoBBo]

Now, it'll be funny to watch Scotland secede from the UK/GB by second vote because they want to stay in the EU and the EU turn around and say "no thanks, there's no advantage for us to let Scotland in by itself".

The local regional government in Scotland already announced last week that they plan to start informal discussions with the EU before they undertake any additional steps. They hope Scotland might be allowed to "stay" a part of EU without being forced to leave along England and Wales first before having to then formally rejoin, which would consume a lot more time.

Moreover, if you bother to take a look at the other 27 member states, you might notice the names of numerous countries that are a lot less attractive than Scotland (with or without its oil) in terms of economic prowess as well as political stability.

 

[JoBBo]

Then there's this;

View attachment 791

Quite inaccurate and misleading, I am afraid. The biggest blunder is the part about Switzerland not adopting EU laws. You can read about it here:
https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/
https://fullfact.org/europe/norway-switzerland-eu-laws/
If Switzerland do not implement a new EU law in a particular area, then they lose access to that part of the EU market. Being outside of the EU system, Switzerland has very little influence on how new EU laws are being written, just like Norway.

 

[ilwrath]

The UK is more poisoned with xenophobia, racism and bigotry just now than I've seen for a long time, possibly ever. The gutter press (most notably the Mail and Express) have been helping stoke it up, along with politicians like Farage.
You seem to think the reasons we voted leave were for ideals like "democracy" and to free ourselves from US military interventions even though the evidence for either amounts to very little. OTOH, the evidence for ignorant xenophobia has been all around us for weeks.

Wow... Yeah, that's not how it has been framed or shown in America. It's been more about the policy issues and the autonomy. It's been about how angry people have been about bailing out their bankrupt neighbors, and how the how the EU has stacked rules against Britain and the other more stable countries in favor of building up the less established ones.

Speaking as someone who has lived in Michigan his whole life... I know how much that sucks. Michigan made the US beaucoup bucks for a long time, until the slow slog of poor trade agreements and our money getting funneled to build the south instead of re-invested in the state finally sank us.

I'm not familiar with the two magazines referenced above by their covers... But yikes. Looks like some of the right-wing rags around here. Fortunately, not that many people take them seriously. Are yours semi-mainstream, or more isolated?

 

[Robert]

Are yours semi-mainstream, or more isolated?

About as mainstream as it's possible for a newspaper to be. The Daily Mail is the 2nd most popular paper in the UK.

 

[Robert]

From today's Independent:

The Polish ambassador has called on the government to condemn a series of hate crimes sparked by the EU referendum result, including reports of anti-Polish signs left outside primary schools in Cambridgeshire.

Hours after Friday’s results were announced, police were called out to investigate reports that signs reading “No more Polish vermin” had been distributed through peoples’ doors and posted outside local primary schools.

The cards read in full: “Leave the EU/No more Polish vermin”, with a translation in Polish on the reverse.