IRS Will Have Stalinist Powers Under New Law

[redrumloa]

Contained within the suspiciously titled "Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act," or "MAP 21," is a provision that gives the Internal Revenue Service the power to keep U.S. citizens from leaving the country if it finds that they owe $50,000 or more in unpaid taxes — no court ruling necessary.

It is hard to imagine any law more reminiscent of the Soviet Union that America toppled, or its Eastern Bloc slave satellites.

In his 1967 CBS "Town Meeting of the World" debate with Bobby Kennedy, Ronald Reagan declared, "we don't want the Berlin Wall knocked down so that it's easier to get at the throats of the East Germans. We just think that a wall that is put up to confine people, and keep them within their own country instead of allowing them the freedom of world travel, has to be somehow wrong."

Throughout the many decades of the 20th century's Cold War, the freedom of movement Americans enjoyed as a cherished right was one of our secret weapons. As the Communists in Moscow promised the world utopia out of the barrel of a gun, people around the globe noticed that the Soviets needed walls and barbed wire fences to keep their people in, while in the U.S. walls were as pointless as a fish's bicycle.

Hope & change.

 

[the_leander]

Tax dodgers being punished? How dare the government do such a thing! It's a damned outrage I tells ya!

Next you'll be complaining that people are imprisoned for gunning down people they don't like the look of on the streets...

 

[redrumloa]

Tax dodgers being punished? How dare the government do such a thing! It's a damned outrage I tells ya!

Next you'll be complaining that people are imprisoned for gunning down people they don't like the look of on the streets...

You wouldn't get it since you aren't an American.

 

[the_leander]

You wouldn't get it since you aren't an American.

What, applying inappropriate analogies on the basis of people bitching about being held responsible for their misdeeds?

No I totally get it. It's a shame it'll never get passed once the rich and powerful realise that it might hurt them, but still.

 

[faethor]

Contained within the suspiciously titled "Moving Ahead for Progress in the 21st Century Act," or "MAP 21," is a provision that gives the Internal Revenue Service the power to keep U.S. citizens from leaving the country if it finds that they owe $50,000 or more in unpaid taxes — no court ruling necessary.

Not paying taxes is a crime. The US Court system often forbids accused felons from leaving the State and/or Nation. And again these people aren't even convicted. If it's found someone didn't pay their taxes is not any different than stealing from the community. This is a crime and until the felon clears their record they should be held accountable as any other criminal.

As Jesus once said - Pay Ceasar what's due Ceasar!

 

[redrumloa]

What, applying inappropriate analogies on the basis of people bitching about being held responsible for their misdeeds?

No I totally get it. It's a shame it'll never get passed once the rich and powerful realise that it might hurt them, but still.

No, you don't get it. We live under a Constitution and (putting aside the whole legality question of the IRS in general) have such a thing as a right to due process. The Constitution is being ignored which is treason, straight up.

This about this for a minute, put the pieces together. faethor gets angry about something and joins an Occupy Something Rally. A few weeks later he is at the airport about to board a plane to visit Fluffy McDeath in Canada. Going through a TSA checkpoint, one agent puts his hands down faethor's pants while another checks his papers. faethor is arrested for some trumped up tax violation he wasn't even aware of. faethor has a black hood put over his head and disappears to Guantanamo Bay where he is tortured and eventually executed. His family and the Whyzzat community have no idea what happened to him and miss him.

If you think this fictional situation could never happen, you haven't been paying attention.

 

[faethor]

Be sure to read this article. I enjoy the posturing of how 1800 Americans love their nation so much they flee abroad to avoid taxes. Yup love the USA just want society to not cost me dime. What flicking BS! If you want all the benefits from the USA but don't want to pay the cost you should get neither. Goodbye.

 

[redrumloa]

Be sure to read this article. I enjoy the posturing of how 1800 Americans love their nation so much they flee abroad to avoid taxes. Yup love the USA just want society to not cost me dime. What flicking BS! If you want all the benefits from the USA but don't want to pay the cost you should get neither. Goodbye.

When did you start hating the Constitution? The issue being raised isn't even the taxes itself, but rather the circumvention of the Constitution.

 

[faethor]

Let me get this right Red. Your counter argument is fleeing so you don't have to pay taxes means you love the Constitution? But me staying here and doing my civic duty means I am the America hater. Whatever!

 

[cecilia]

Let me get this right Red. Your counter argument is fleeing so you don't have to pay taxes means you love the Constitution? But me staying here and doing my civic duty means I am the America hater. Whatever!

weird, isn't it??

he's got absolutely no sense of social responsibility. it's all about ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME

I can't tell you how glad I am to have good neighbors. People who look out for each other, care about each other's property and safety. The fellow across the street regularly keeps our driveway clean (esp when it snows). Without being asked. Just does it. We've planted trees on our next door neighbors front curb, exchange gifts and so on......that's what makes America great...not this ME ME ME crap.
When you care about the people around you, you Don't shit on them

 

[the_leander]

No, you don't get it. We live under a Constitution

No, you live under a constitution and thousands of amendments, legal precidents international treaties and so on.

Trying the line of "but but but, the constitution" doesn't wash with me. Also note that every single case, without exception trying to claim that the IRS is illegal and that they shouldn't pay taxes has been thrown out with prejudice. Their legality is not in doubt.

have such a thing as a right to due process.

If the IRS are anything like HM Revenue and Customs, a power like this would only be used in a last resort case. Before you'd get letters, visits by the IRS in person, then summonsed to court, then visits by court appointed bailiffs etc etc. $50,000 in unpaid taxes from what I've seen of your tax system is something you'd actively go out of your way to build up, not simply miss something on a tax return.

This about this for a minute, put the pieces together. faethor gets angry about something and joins an Occupy Something Rally. A few weeks later he is at the airport about to board a plane to visit Fluffy McDeath in Canada. Going through a TSA checkpoint, one agent puts his hands down faethor's pants while another checks his papers. faethor is arrested for some trumped up tax violation he wasn't even aware of. faethor has a black hood put over his head and disappears to Guantanamo Bay where he is tortured and eventually executed. His family and the Whyzzat community have no idea what happened to him and miss him.

How the hell do you not suffer from hyperbolic sepsis when you knock nonsense like this out?

If you think this fictional situation could never happen, you haven't been paying attention.

If you genuinely believe that it will happen, seek professional medical help. Seriously, Alex Jones and his ilk are nothing more than self serving mongers of hate and fear.

 

[faethor]

I can't tell you how glad I am to have good neighbors. People who look out for each other, care about each other's property and safety. The fellow across the street regularly keeps our driveway clean (esp when it snows). Without being asked. Just does it. We've planted trees on our next door neighbors front curb, exchange gifts and so on......that's what makes America great...not this ME ME ME crap.
When you care about the people around you, you Don't shit on them

A large part of the issue with modern conservativism is they take the idea of a 'self made man' and libertarism to extremes. It's so extreme they easily forget the first thing said in the US Constitution is - WE the people. As well as they forget the next thing - in order to form a more perfect UNION. The idea behind America is we're a diverse nation striving and working together to make this a great place.

And yes it's those neighbors that look out for each other which exactly what the Founders used as the idea to create the Country. The idea that the sum of the whole is greater than the division of it's parts.

So as I said if those people want all the profits and none of the costs of a Republic that is build - of, by, and for the PEOPLE - then good riddence. You are free to go but pay your dues before you do.

 

[redrumloa]

Trying the line of "but but but, the constitution" doesn't wash with me. Also note that every single case, without exception trying to claim that the IRS is illegal and that they shouldn't pay taxes has been thrown out with prejudice. Their legality is not in doubt.

Maybe you should read the Bill of Rights.

Amendment V
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Amendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
Amendment VII
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
Amendment VIII
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.[/qupte]

How the hell do you not suffer from hyperbolic sepsis when you knock nonsense like this out?

Like I said, you have not been paying attention. Go actually read their own words. Read the NDAA. Read MAP 21. Read the Bill of Rights and the Constitution. In case you missed it, Obama has already ordered the killing of us citizens without a trial. The NDAA allows any person to be detained indefinitely without a trial. You can all continue to be sheep if you like. We're screwed regardless.

Say, how's that European Union thing working out for you? How do you think Goldman Sachs being your government is going to work out?

 

[robert l. bentham]

guess ur like most folks red, only read the parts ya want to...

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

it is commonly referred to as the elastic clause... i first learned about it in the sixth grade i believe...

 

[the_leander]

Maybe you should read the Bill of Rights.

I have.

Like I said, you have not been paying attention.

Oh, I have. I, like many other people were warning about this for years on AO. Only to be told by you and others that the idea of US politicians making a massive power grab was a really, seriously bad idea was a load of old tosh that would never go anywhere and that I was just looking for excuses to bash the chimperer on.

Go actually read their own words.

I have.

Read the NDAA. Read MAP 21. Read the Bill of Rights and the Constitution.

I've looked at NDAA in depth, MAP 21 based on my initial reading my point still stands - You would have to deliberately go out of your way to A) Owe that much tax and B) Ignore countless warnings prior to such action being taken.

As for the Bill of Rights and the constitution, those two things are as I said only the beginning. Reading them to the exclusion of all else is not only unhelpful, it's intellectually dishonest.

In case you missed it, Obama has already ordered the killing of us citizens without a trial.

Makes a change from shooting at your allies citizens and soldiers...

The NDAA allows any person to be detained indefinitely without a trial. You can all continue to be sheep if you like. We're screwed regardless.

Seriously? You're actually going there? Right...

You are now conflating multiple unconnected pieces of legislation, hell, you've even given a hyperbolic appeal to emotion based on this conflation.

Your mission, whether you like it or not, is to now show how the NDAA, which is a travesty, is going to be tied to the IRS via MAP 21. How tax dodgers will according to you be executed - your suggestion.

I'll be waiting right here.

Say, how's that European Union thing working out for you?

That would be the European Union I've been against since I first really became aware of it, right?

I've made my views clear on my dislike of the EU for over a decade now. I've based this on the fact that A) it's wholly unaccountable, B) economic suicide and C) we weren't asked, not once. I've typed out thousands of words expressing and expanding on this view.

And you're throwing it at me like I support it? Wow.

How do you think Goldman Sachs being your government is going to work out?

I daresay no better than it will do for you, assuming the Chinese don't simply nationalise you all first.

 

[robert l. bentham]

the entire bottom of my dd-214 is written in chinese....

lol!

 

[redrumloa]

guess ur like most folks red, only read the parts ya want to...

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;
To borrow money on the credit of the United States;
To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;
To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;
To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;
To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;
To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;
To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;
To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;
To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;
To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;
To provide and maintain a Navy;
To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;
To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And
To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

it is commonly referred to as the elastic clause... i first learned about it in the sixth grade i believe...

And your point? Nowhere does it say the IRS is not required to follow due process.

 

[robert l. bentham]

the elastic clause gives congress the power to do whatever the hell "congress wants to", and they have permission to do so, right there! you say oh...! constitution don't give right to do this or do that... and well... that's exactly what that clause was put there for... anything they want... you know... for the welfare of the nation... ... kinda makes all your "constitution thumping" seem somewhat ridiculous in hindsight....

 

[redrumloa]

Unreal, I am pissing into the wind here. The USA is supposed to be the land of the free. If someone is a tax cheat, take them to court and get a judgement against them. I can't believe this "so what?" attitude about punishment without a trial.

 

[robert l. bentham]

here's where your going all astray and aren't getting it: you live in a "big picture world" and your living in your microcosm of "red meat issues". liberals have been telling you for years that the judicial system and law enforcement is so mired in corruption that innocents were being executed... you did not care probably. what you are quibbling about here amounts to whether you get "no trial" or a "show trial" and to me that just seems silly that you think liberals should be surprised, they've been telling the right wing that which they've known, for years....