Amiga users and Android cell phones -- the paradox.

[Wayne]

There's something about Android phones and Amiga users that I just don't get, so can someone please explain it to me? For years, Amiga users stood up and decried Windows and Microsoft as pretty much the Anti-Christ of all computing.

Simultaneously, to most, the Amiga represents the pinnacle of the computing experience. While most will admit the Amiga is long overdue at it's own memorial services, the fact is that the Amiga was -- for many years -- the computer all others aspired to be..

Apple, in all it's elitist glory, is exactly like the Commodore of 1985. Closed hardware, high prices, exceptional value, does amazing things with their products.

Similarly, flash forward 20 years and the iPhone and iPad now literally hold the cornerstone of aspiration. Every phone and tablet seems to try and be exactly what the iphone and iPad already are. Hope that makes sense. It does in my head anyway.

Along comes the overly commodity-driven, totally generic Android on so-called smartphones and blatant rip-off styled tablets and everyone's going apey over them?

I look at Apple and the iPhone/iPad, and I see revolutionary products (and they really are). I look at Android which suffers from exactly the same problems as Windows OS and I cannot help but see Microsoft all over again.

Sure, Android is (currently) "free" -- except it's really not -- but the same flaws are there. ie;

• "Open" OS supported across dozens of devices (like Windows), meaning hundreds if not thousands of different configurations, making the whole thing unstable.
• A burgeoning software market which is good at a lot of things but apparently not really groundbreaking at ANYTHING (give or take 90% of all Android apps are ports of i* software)
• The pricing of most Android tablets (aside from Thai knockoffs) seems to be identical to the iPad. The price of most of the new Android phones (meaning brand new on the market) is similar to the iPhone. Both are heavily subsidized.
• Once you buy an Android device, that seems to be it. You can't upgrade to the next major revision unless you buy all new hardware. The iPhone 3g in my pocket (going on 4 years old now) has been from iOS 1 to the current 4.x. My point is that almost no Android user will get almost 4 years out of their phone without upgrading at least once, meaning an Android phone will actually cost MORE in the long run.
• .. etc. etc. etc.

I just don't understand why an Amiga user would be anti-Apple and pro-Android AT ALL.

"If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit."

 

[Karlos]

I think the flaw in your assumption is that former Amiga users would necessarily prefer Apple over, say Linux. I know I prefer and use the latter.

AmigaOS may have been closed, but there was always enough documentation and knowledge floating around for developers to do what they wanted with it. Even many ordinary end-users had the knowledge to bend it to their will and had a level of expertise with it that I'd definitely suggest exceeds that of your typical PC or OSX user today. I suspect that OSX users that were former Amiga users will always wonder why other users never followed suit, but my guess is that as many, if not more users probably migrated to Linux or Windows when OSX was still running (at least for end users) on PPC only.

With that sort of track record, it doesn't surprise me that Android is a popular choice. Like AmigaOS, you can hack away at it to your heart's content. Also, not being able to upgrade without all new hardware isn't necessarily true. The vendor might not give you Android 3 for your factory installed 2.x device, but if you have the chops for it and sufficient knowledge of your device, there's nothing stopping you doing it.

 

[adz]

One word sums it up for me, iTunes...You are forced to use that POS software to do anything and everything to your device. I have an HTC Incredible S running Android 2.3 and I love it, I can copy what I want where I want it, install what I want, it's been anything but unstable and if my battery mysteriously shits itself I can simply pop the back off and change it myself.

I manage, rollout and support Apple devices all the time and I see nothing intuative about them, the only good thing Apple has going is their damn marketing department. When I first encountered OS X I thought to myself, damn this feels like an Amiga, six revisions on and it feels like a bloated gimmick designed to make the masses go oooh and ahhh. What never ceases to amaze me is that I never seem to have the problems with Windows that many others have, it surprises the crap out of me because if I were to pay any attention to the Apple marketing guys I'd be lucky to even log into my Windows box without a BSOD appearing.

 

[Karlos]

I think Adz has hit upon another aspect of the Apple experience that I neglected given that I was focusing on the software side only. Specifically that it isn't just the OS that is closed, it's the hardware too. And closed to a ridiculous extreme, too. Not being able to even change the battery (for example) in your iOS device benefits you how?

 

[Vecanti]

Well, I'm not really sure how Amiga vs IBM -Atari - B&W Macs of the 80's early 90's relates to Apple vs Android today.

There are two reason, stages, why I liked Amiga back then. I originally liked Amiga because it just could do more. It simply was more powerful than any other solution. It blew everything else away hands down. Apple vs Android doesn't relate here. They are pretty similar really. People could nit-pick all day about little things, but really they are fairly similar. Nothing like the huge divide that existed with the Amiga's power.

Later on the 2nd reason I stayed with Amiga was its simple OS. I still really wish there was a single user OS today with no registry that had all the power/software of Windows/MacOS. I know you lose security, but since I can back it up and know everything exists in a few folders I don't care. Again though, how this relates to Apple vs Android I'm not sure. Under the hood they are both not really accessible to the normal user without rooting your 'average' device.

I guess the closest thing I could think of that relates to why I prefer Android and how it maybe relates to Amiga is that Amiga felt more open back then. Anyone could code for an Amiga right in their bedroom. There were tons people making there own software that you could get on BBSes or on floppies at your user group meetings, from friends, Fish disks and so on.

That's how I feel about Android. Anyone can download and install any apps from anywhere and get the SDK and program on Linux, Windows, or Mac. If you want to program for the iPhone you have to have a Mac. If you want to distribute your app you have to do through Apple. Sure you can do it through 'less legit' channels to jail broken phones and things. But why when you can just do it on Android?

 

[Wayne]

One word sums it up for me, iTunes...You are forced to use that POS software to do anything and everything to your device.

I've not yet ever had any sort of problem with iTunes, so I don't quite get the hatred of it. It's a media player. No different from any other, except that it provides the loading interface (and IMHO, a great one) for Apple mobile devices. I use it for not only listening to music and managing my toys, but also for streaming to my Apple TV.

None of which is seemingly subject to the dreaded DRM, as all the movies I (legally) own and rip don't have DRM attached. It's only stuff bought from the Apple store apparently that gets that way and moving it back and forth between dvd and the computer again seems to remove it, so... again, why the hatred?

That's how I feel about Android. Anyone can download and install any apps from anywhere and get the SDK and program on Linux, Windows, or Mac. If you want to program for the iPhone you have to have a Mac. If you want to distribute your app you have to do through Apple. Sure you can do it through 'less legit' channels to jail broken phones and things. But why when you can just do it on Android?

... and with a complete lack of QC/QA (since you can just download whatever from whereever), you're right back in Windows territory with unstable apps. Not to mention -- as the Angry Birds guys found out -- since you're writing essentially for over 100 platforms -- each device has it's own version and compile issues -- writing for Android is a hell of a lot more difficult. Plus when you consider it's all "free" based, for developers, the ROI of time and energy to develop for the platform is far less because everyone wants everything for free.

I'm not really trying to debate things here guys. I just don't get Amiga users hatred against Apple when -- in perspective fact -- Apple is the "new Commodore".

Me? I love the fact that in 5 years, I've not found, bought, used, or experienced a single thing about my Apple products that was broken or didn't work. I sit down at my computer / pick up my iPad or iPhone and everything just works, exactly like it should.

I've had two problems hardware-wise. One caused by me, one not, both covered under warranty and fixed the same day with a simple trip to the local store. That's not something that could be said in any fashion for my considerable experience with Microsoft or Windows (where the norm seemed to be having to do a wipe and reload every 6 months).

A vast majority of the people I hear who say "I hate Apple products" have never actually used -- or in most cases even touched -- an Apple product. So I'm not trying to be thick here either. I just don't get it.

 

[Wayne]

That's how I feel about Android. Anyone can download and install any apps from anywhere and get the SDK and program on Linux, Windows, or Mac.

I don't see that as a good thing.

If you want to program for the iPhone you have to have a Mac.

I can't speak for that, because all I have is an iMac.

If you want to distribute your app you have to do through Apple. Sure you can do it through 'less legit' channels to jail broken phones and things. But why when you can just do it on Android?

Again, don't see a problem with distributing your App through the Apple store. *if* you've followed the guidelines and everything, approval is not an issue and you reach millions of people instantly in one place who all run compatible devices (which Android's thousands of different installs are not all compatible) who can download your program and be almost assured of a good, tested program.

The only advantage I see to the Android way is if you want to write shit software that tries to do things not supported by the phone itself. Stuff that will either break or -- at the least -- act unstably on your phone.

I'm not trying to say Apple is perfect. There are lots of things they do that I don't like (like the whole "subscriptions to eMags have to be made through the Apple store so Apple gets its' cut" thing) but I just understand why most decisions are made.

I'll offer this though. I guarantee you that Android devices ends up being hacked, attacked, and turned into zombie devices much faster than Apple's iOS will. It's just a matter of time before the hackers figure out that 10 million "free and open" cellphones and tablets with almost zero QC going on at the software entry points make one hell of a bot army.

Wayne

 

[Robert]

@Wayne:
I answered you on Facebook but I'll re-post here:

Interesting points, Wayne. From my own point of view the Amiga was mainly about recording music for me. I still have a collection of them though I no longer use them. I switched over to iBook about seven years ago, then MB and more recently MB Pro with SSD.

The main software I use (Logic) is now made by Apple and officially only runs on Macs (I hackintoshed a winXP box and got Logic running but it was mainly to prove to myself I could do it and wasn't really worth the effort.) So my main reason for using Macs is the requirements of the software. That said, there's no doubt they're more Amiga-like than PC's.

When it comes to 'phones, yes, I have an Android 'phone and have no desire for an iPhone. However the reasons are again pretty specific:
1: It's £7.99 a month, compared to the at least £25/month I'd need to pay for an iPhone.
2: I don't like iTunes and, more importantly, I hate being dictated to about syncing the music on my computer and my 'phone.

So, I'll probably stick with Android for my 'phones and Macs for my computers for a long time to come.

 

[Robert]

One word sums it up for me, iTunes...You are forced to use that POS software to do anything and everything to your device.

This is one of my major gripes too.

 

[adz]

I've not yet ever had any sort of problem with iTunes, so I don't quite get the hatred of it. It's a media player. No different from any other, except that it provides the loading interface (and IMHO, a great one) for Apple mobile devices. I use it for not only listening to music and managing my toys, but also for streaming to my Apple TV.

None of which is seemingly subject to the dreaded DRM, as all the movies I (legally) own and rip don't have DRM attached. It's only stuff bought from the Apple store apparently that gets that way and moving it back and forth between dvd and the computer again seems to remove it, so... again, why the hatred?

DRM, the fact that it tries to seize control of your folder structure, the next to useless random play feature, the clunky interface and lets face it, managing multiple devices is difficult at best. Plus a good chunk of Apple nuts I come across seem to hate it too. My hatred of all things Apple doesn't stem from opinions garnered from reading other peoples opinions on the internets, the fact that the support departments I oversee spend more time fixing OS X or iOS problems than anything else is sufficient alone.

 

[adz]

I don't see that as a good thing.

Why? Freedom to do whatever the hell you want with the device you paid money for is a good thing in my book.

 

[Karlos]

Personally, I'll take Android's open approach to development over Apple pilfering any decent ideas I might have:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/apple_copies_rejected_app/

 

[Robert]

Personally, I'll take Android's open approach to development over Apple pilfering any decent ideas I might have:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/06/08/apple_copies_rejected_app/

tut-tut.

But the next time Steve Jobs and company chides a competitor for blatant copying, remember that in the world in which Apple – and indeed any dominant company – resides, originality is in the eye of the Goliaths. The Davids, it seems, don't stand a chance.

Quite.

 

[faethor]

I'll offer this though. I guarantee you that Android devices ends up being hacked, attacked, and turned into zombie devices much faster than Apple's iOS will. It's just a matter of time before the hackers figure out that 10 million "free and open" cellphones and tablets with almost zero QC going on at the software entry points make one hell of a bot army.

http://www.techspot.com/news/42367-researchers-hack-ios-passwords-in-under-six-minutes.html -- So do you think this is a 'security' thing or favortism by hackers?

iTunes feels very Amiga-like to me. Though for me that's a problem. First it's not the Amiga so I feel like I'm stuck in some ripped off bad copy of the real thing. Second, it's not 1990 but 2011. That approach feels old and less modern than other options on the marketplace.

 

[cecilia]

if I recall on a Ubuntu forum I am on a member had received an iPad or something apple-like as a gift.
he does not have a MAC. he uses linux, ya know?

so he was unable to start up his ipad thingy because apparently you need to plug it into a MAC to get it rolling. I think you have to connect it to a MAC to get the iTunes thing registered but I forget these details now.
I think he had to go find an Apple store to get his iPad tuned up.

now, my brother has a MAC (several in fact) and LOVES it. Loves IT!
being a linux user (on my Ubuntu 90% of the time), I like the flexibility. But I don't hate Apple products. They just present a few problems which need to be overcome.

and I do love Android. The whole touch screen thing is a dream!

 

[Glaucus]

I think Apple fan boys love to give more credit to Apple then Apple is due. Steve jobs didn't invent the cell phone with a built in music player. The Motorola ROKR pre-dated it and was in fact the first mobile phone to integrate with iTunes. That's right, before the iPhone. But somehow Apple fan boys love to tell us how the iPhone revolutionized the world, when really the iPhone was just a rip-off of the ROKR. A good rip-off it was, but a rip-off is still a rip-off.

One of the reasons I refuse to own any Apple products is Steve Jobs. He's very good at producing eye catching devices. Unfortunately he's also very good at crippling them in really weird ways. Why is it that every other phone has a battery that can be easily changed? Sorry, I don't get that. Batteries degrade with time, it's a fact, they need to be changed. It's like buying a car with the brake rotors welded on and no oil drain on the engine. It's just stupid.

I still think the iPad/iPad2 is just a toy and mostly because of the things it can't do. The newer Android tablets come with a lot more useful ports and just from a hardware point of view are much more interesting. I still can't believe lack of USB, SD and camera on the original iPad. You should see the long list of STANDARD ports on the latest Toshiba Thrive!

As for Android, so far I think it's just better. I know that's something many Apple fan boys just can't understand, but the iPhone really isn't the be-all-end-all. And it's closed market certainly doesn't help, and in fact, I consider to be a horrible path to go down. For the same reason I would never buy a PSP Go because of it's dependence on Sony's PSN for ALL your purchases, is the same reason I would never want any iOS device. I can't believe people think this is even acceptable, but whatever. Also, developing for an iPhone means you need an iMac, which I have no interest in. Instead I downloaded the free Android SDK and the very good Eclipse IDE and am able to produce Android apps quite easily on my WindowsXP laptop. And I never have to worry that Apple may decide to not host my app on their store for no apparent reason.

As for Android upgrades on phones. That is a bit of a sore spot right now, but upgrades do exist. The Samsung Captivate went from 2.1 to 2.2 and I suspect 2.3 will eventually be released. But it's really up to the manufacturer and Google is trying to get them to keep the phones current for at least 18 months. But if upgrades are important I'd suggest getting a Nexus phone, those always have the latest OS. But let's not forget that jailbreaking your iPhone may make it impossible to upgrade and that rooting your Android phone makes it possible to install custom firmwares.

As for Amigas, I don't see much of a connection. Perhaps Apple appeals more to the artists and Android more to those who like to tinker. I was never much of an artist.

 

[Robert]

As for Amigas, I don't see much of a connection. Perhaps Apple appeals more to the artists and Android more to those who like to tinker.

Those two are not mutually exclusive. I like to create stuff (mostly music) but I also like to tinker.

Then again, I like Apple stuff and Android stuff.

 

[cecilia]

Apple Contractor to Replace Workers With Robots
at least the Apple products won't be made using slave labor......maybe

 

[Vecanti]

That's how I feel about Android. Anyone can download and install any apps from anywhere and get the SDK and program on Linux, Windows, or Mac.

I don't see that as a good thing.

Yes, but your questing how Amiga users could support Android. That is the Amiga way. We developed our own apps and could get them from anywhere. Sure the OS and hardware were closed, but that is where it ended. Commodore had zero say in who could write apps, the quality of them, or how they could be distributed.

The irony of it all is that a lot of the best Amiga games me and my friends played probably would never have made it through Apple Q and A. Also, a lot of Amiga games back then that got spread around weren't meant to be quality final release, but just made for fun and spread around on PD disks to say, "hey look what I did!" And many of those people went on to make their living developing software because they could learn to program and distribute software with no restrictions.

Image if Amiga had used the Apple model. If the only way to make and distribute Amiga games and software was through a "Commodore Store" back then Amiga would have sucked and wouldn't have been anything at all as great as it was.

Can you imagine the demo scene if every demo had to be approved through a Commodore store!

 

[Vecanti]

Again, don't see a problem with distributing your App through the Apple store. *if* you've followed the guidelines and everything, approval is not an issue and you reach millions of people instantly in one place who all run compatible devices (which Android's thousands of different installs are not all compatible) who can download your program and be almost assured of a good, tested program.

I guess the problem, aside from freedom of choice and all that, is money.

On the Amiga I make a piece of software that costs $10 and cecilia comes along and gives me $10, well, I give her the software and I get $10.

On Android I can do this.

On iPhone I cannot.

I understand if I use the Apple Store they get a cut for all the work they do, but if want to sell my own app to cecilia, should I not be able to do so on my own website and get my $10? Why should this be any of Apple's business? I guess that they want to be a part of every iPhone users life even after phone purchase? That's fine, but not the Amiga way.