Automotive 3 year quality study

[ilwrath]

JD Power recently released their 3 year quality study results. All three major Ford marques (Ford, Lincoln, Mercury) scored in the top 10, as did GM's Buick division. USA Today has the full results.

Though, now the fight is to get the word out that America builds good cars. As rightfully stated in the Detroit News, these benefits can go largely unnoticed. "It takes a long time build positive feelings about a brand and very little time to destroy it," said Ed Kim, an automotive analyst for AutoPacific Inc.

 

[Glaucus]

Perhaps I missed it, but I would have liked to see an actual top ten list.

I thought it was interesting that Toyota and Honda topped the pickup truck segments. I'd venture a guess that it probably because they've been wanting to crack open that market for years and have been over engineering those vehicles for durability.

And am I the only one surprised that Porsche got a good rating? Everything I knew about Porsche (from those who owned them or worked for Porsche) was that they were not very well made at all. It seems the company has turned things around. I heard Mercedes has recently improved their quality control as well. About time.

 

[Wayne]

While I wouldn't doubt the veracity of statistics, I just don't put a lot of faith in these types of reports.

The conspiratorally minded part of me wonders how much Ford and GM paid for such spots, or whether there was some sort of pressure applied to help out the US automakers by placing them higher than realistic.

In regards to taking a while to correct a reputation, they're right. I have my 2002 Ford Ranger (labeled as a Mazda B2300) 4-cylinder and it's shite enough for me not to EVER want to buy another American vehicle, or at least I will never buy another American (badged) 4-cylinder vehicle.

Wayne

 

[redrumloa]

In regards to taking a while to correct a reputation, they're right. I have my 2002 Ford Ranger (labeled as a Mazda B2300) 4-cylinder and it's shite enough for me not to EVER want to buy another American vehicle, or at least I will never buy another American (badged) 4-cylinder vehicle.

Wayne

If it has a manual transmission be *VERY* careful before you let a shop change the gear oil, it may not be gear oil in there! Some of the manual transmission use ATF :!: :!: :!:

I found out the hard way after a shop I used made this mistake TWICE! I probaby told you this story already...

 

[ilwrath]

Perhaps I missed it, but I would have liked to see an actual top ten list.

It's broken out on the USA Today article, but in paragraph form. In table form, you get

1 - 110 Porsche
2 - 114 Lincoln
3t - 115 Buick
3t - 115 Lexus
5 - 121 Mercury
6 - 128 Toyota
7 - 132 Honda
8 - 141 Ford
9 - 142 Mercedes-Benz
10 - 143 Acura

I thought it was interesting that Toyota and Honda topped the pickup truck segments. I'd venture a guess that it probably because they've been wanting to crack open that market for years and have been over engineering those vehicles for durability.

Yeah, for the fullsize, the Tundra nosed out the F150 and Silverado. Toyota really did a great job on that Tundra. Both from the engineering and marketing side. Full props to them, there.

For the midsize truck... Well, there really wasn't any competition. The Ridgeline beat the quality depressed Dodge Dakota while the early 80's called and said they wanted back their Ford Ranger.

In regards to taking a while to correct a reputation, they're right. I have my 2002 Ford Ranger (labeled as a Mazda B2300) 4-cylinder and it's shite enough for me not to EVER want to buy another American vehicle, or at least I will never buy another American (badged) 4-cylinder vehicle.

You know, I agree, there. I'm hesitant to buy any 4-cylinder, but especially an American one. I'm really interested to see how Ford's EcoBoost 4's stand up to the 3 year test. It feels like taking two things American companies typically do badly (Turbos and 4 Cylinders) and combining them is just asking for trouble.

I really hope for the sake of our economy, I'm proved wrong, though. Because even the robber/bankers are starting to agree... We need good manufacturing jobs in America. And that can't happen unless people buy American products.

 

[Glaucus]

Sorry, I skimmed the article to the bottom of the page there.

Have now read the first few paragraphs I have to wonder if expensive luxury cars should even be listed here. Or put another way, instead of correcting problems for over a three year period, instead correct for miles driven. The rational being that Porsches are considered luxury cars, babied by their owners. I don't see too many Porsches driving around in the winter, or even in the rain. With fewer miles on them, defects are more likely to remain hidden over a three year period.

 

[JoBBo]

Have now read the first few paragraphs I have to wonder if expensive luxury cars should even be listed here. Or put another way, instead of correcting problems for over a three year period, instead correct for miles driven. The rational being that Porsches are considered luxury cars, babied by their owners. I don't see too many Porsches driving around in the winter, or even in the rain. With fewer miles on them, defects are more likely to remain hidden over a three year period.

Based on my experience in Europe, owners of luxury cars tend to driver at higher speeds than owners of low-cost vehicles. To use an extreme example, I am sure you would agree that driving a Porsche 50 miles at 120 mph is more likely to reveal defects than driving a low-cost vehicle 50 miles at a speed of 60 mph.

Around here, not including convertibles, Porsche and Mercedes cars are driven in the winter time just as often as in every other season, by the way.

 

[Glaucus]

Based on my experience in Europe, owners of luxury cars tend to driver at higher speeds than owners of low-cost vehicles. To use an extreme example, I am sure you would agree that driving a Porsche 50 miles at 120 mph is more likely to reveal defects than driving a low-cost vehicle 50 miles at a speed of 60 mph.

Around here, not including convertibles, Porsche and Mercedes cars are driven in the winter time just as often as in every other season, by the way.

Perhaps, but I'm not sure the study corrects for geography either. And no, speed really doesn't play much of a role. In fact, highway miles are considered to be less stressful then city miles. Reason is that stop-and-go puts stress on all components from engine, to cooling system, to breaks, to suspension, etc. Driving through mountains can put stress on your cooling system (as I've learned the hard way), but that's about it. Yes, not all parts of the world see snow like we do here, but still, it's common for people who have a luxury car to have more then one vehicle. A Porsche might be a daily driver for a Ferrari owner, or like with my buddy, a BMW is his daily car but takes out the Porsche only on the sunniest of days.

 

[faethor]

If it has a manual transmission be *VERY* careful before you let a shop change the gear oil, it may not be gear oil in there! Some of the manual transmission use ATF :!: :!: :!:

I found out the hard way after a shop I used made this mistake TWICE! I probaby told you this story already...

What's the difference? ATF has a slightly larger weight range and some cleaners compared to gear oil. Go with ATF in your manual and you'll likely see no effect, at worse, to a small 1-2MPG gain.

 

[ilwrath]

Have now read the first few paragraphs I have to wonder if expensive luxury cars should even be listed here. Or put another way, instead of correcting problems for over a three year period, instead correct for miles driven. The rational being that Porsches are considered luxury cars, babied by their owners. I don't see too many Porsches driving around in the winter, or even in the rain. With fewer miles on them, defects are more likely to remain hidden over a three year period.

That's a good point. I'm not sure what, if any, compensations are made for duty cycle differences. Also, I believe the study is North American (or possibly even US) only. So Glaucus' identification of the Porsche as a pampered toy car is quite accurate for here. Also, I think people expect little niggles with their Porsche's and tally that into their own "cost of ownership" equation, and are more unlikely to mention them.

The rest of the brands up there should have fairly similar North American duty cycles, though. I don't know of anyone who stores their 3 year-old Lincoln or Buick during the winter, and I really don't expect anyone will trailer one of them to the track!

Though thinking about it more, duty cycle may give other unforeseen advantages, as well. Take that Honda Ridgeline in the midsize truck category; being unibody, I bet it gets less towing duty than it's competitors... :?

 

[Glaucus]

ATF has more then that. According to the wikipedia:

Modern ATF typically contains a wide variety of chemical compounds intended to provide the required properties of a particular ATF specification. Most ATFs contain some combination of rust preventatives, anti-foam additives, detergents, dispersants, anti-wear additives, anti-oxidation compounds, surfactants, cold-flow improvers, high-temperature thickeners, gasket conditioners, and petroleum dye.

Can't say that I'd recommend fooling around with stuff like that. If a manual tranny wants ATF, give it ATF.

There's a guy on the Prelude forum I go to that insists that you can use regular engine oil in the MT of a Civic as well as regular MTF oil - apparently it says so in the owners manual. I'd still prefer the Honda MTF at $10 a liter just for peace of mind. You're likely to change the MTF maybe twice in the lifetime of the vechile anyway, so no biggie.

 

[faethor]

Can't say that I'd recommend fooling around with stuff like that. If a manual tranny wants ATF, give it ATF.

ATF works in manuals. Gear oil does not work in automatics. If there's a question choose ATF.

There's a guy on the Prelude forum I go to that insists that you can use regular engine oil in the MT of a Civic as well as regular MTF oil - apparently it says so in the owners manual. I'd still prefer the Honda MTF at $10 a liter just for peace of mind. You're likely to change the MTF maybe twice in the lifetime of the vechile anyway, so no biggie.

Gear Oil is rated at low viscoity operations. Motor oil are rated for high viscosity operations. The two methods are different but one can find cross over points. The most common gear oil is 75W90 which is the same viscosity as 10W40 motor oil.