Black Monday - Sept 29, 2008?

Stunning Defeat for Bailout Plan Torpedoes Stocks; Dow Sinks Over 750
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/080929/wall_street.html

Stocks plunge as financial bailout plan fails in House vote; Dow fall 777, biggest drop ever
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Do not be fooled into wanting this bailout. What is bad for Wall Street is good for Main Street.

Light, sweet crude for November delivery sank $10.52, or 10.1 percent, to settle at $96.36 on the New York Mercantile Exchange, after earlier dropping as low as $95.04. It was crude's lowest trading level since prices edged back below $100 earlier this month; crude previously hadn't traded that low since February.
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http://finance.yahoo.com/currency/conve ... amt=1&t=5d

Screw the Fat Cats, let Wall Street burn.
 
This got posted this morning.

Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.
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Even Michael Moore trying to rally Dems to vote no.

Well, fortunately the people win round one. Let's see what round two has got in store.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
This got posted this morning.

Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.
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Even Michael Moore trying to rally Dems to vote no.

Well, fortunately the people win round one. Let's see what round two has got in store.
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It is a sad day in America when I agree with butterball :cry:
 
redrumloa said:
It is a sad day in America when I agree with butterball :cry:
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I thought it might pain you, but it really is illustrative of what a giant clusterf*** this is when it's getting people from all sides crossing lines.

But it's important not to give in to this attempted bankers' coup.

"The Effective Fed Funds rate has been trading 50 basis points or more below the 2% target for five straight days now, and for the last two days, it has traded 75 basis points under. The IRX is demanding an immediate rate cut. The Slosh has been intentionally drained by over $125 billion in the last week and lowering the water in the swamp exposed one dead body - Washington Mutual - which was immediately raided on a no-notice basis by JP Morgan. Not even WaMu's CEO knew about the raid until it was done....The Fed claims to be an "independent central bank." They are nothing of the kind; they are now acting as an arsonist. The Fed and Treasury have claimed this is a "liquidity crisis"; it is not. It is an insolvency crisis that The Fed, Treasury and the other regulatory organs of our government have intentionally allowed to occur."
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$700,000,000,000 Fat Cat Bailout
divide by - 305,293,132 (US Census)
----------
$2,292.88 for every man, woman, child, senior, invalid etc

Let's see.. I have myself, wife, 4 kids all dependents = $13,757.27

My tab = $13,757.27

F*** that! I'm a capitalist! I didn't cry when these fat cats were raking in eye rolling salaries, why should I cry when they fail? :evil:
 
redrumloa said:
$700,000,000,000 Fat Cat Bailout
divide by - 305,293,132 (US Census)
----------
$2,292.88 for every man, woman, child, senior, invalid etc

Let's see.. I have myself, wife, 4 kids all dependents = $13,757.27

My tab = $13,757.27

F*** that! I'm a capitalist! I didn't cry when these fat cats were raking in eye rolling salaries, why should I cry when they fail? :evil:
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Bush doubled your part of the deficit from $30K to $60K or your family only $240K. Certainly $13K more is 5%. A drop in the proverbial bucket.
 
It's interesting how this is perceived completely differently over here.

Over in the US it seems to be seen as a bailout of the fat cats so it's understandable that it's rather unpopular.

However over here it's seen as a bailout of the entire economy, so a no vote is utterly mystifying.

I think one commentator had it right last night. He said something along the lines of: People will begin to see it's importance to them when it begins to hit main street - when companies can't get money to pay wages.


It's not happened much yet but some companies over here have gone bust because they can't get loans. Getting a mortgage is also getting rather difficult and as a result the housing market is tanking.

If banks don't loan money it's not just the fat cats who lose out - if they lose out at all - it's anyone with savings, mortgages or pensions.
 
I know someone who has worked on wall st and he claims the PLAN is good.....I have reason to believe him.

However, I can understand why voters are not happy with the plan.

first, they don't really know what the PLAN is and aren't judging it. They are totally distrustful of the politician's who are pushing the PLAN. Who wouldn't be??

and I certainly believe that the people expecting HUGE retirements and salaries (who have been {bleep} this up all along) are going to walk away rich.

frankly, they should be stripped of everything. I want to see all those people on street corners holding cups
 
minator said:
It's interesting how this is perceived completely differently over here.

Over in the US it seems to be seen as a bailout of the fat cats so it's understandable that it's rather unpopular.

However over here it's seen as a bailout of the entire economy, so a no vote is utterly mystifying.
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When looking at the matter from a US perspective, you have to consider what has happened in that country in the last eight years. The current administration said that the war in Iraq would cost the American taxpayers no more than 50 billion in total. Well, the US is now at $500 billion and counting...

If more or less the same people now tell you that they need $700 billion for anything, it is perfectly normal behaviour to be *highly* reluctant and question how much higher the real cost is going to be.

In additon to that, there are a great many economic experts who admit that they are unsure if the plan is going to work out. The only thing that everybody agrees on is that doing nothing is likely to be worse than doing something.

The question is whether the proposed plan is really the best plan there is. If you are not generally opposed to invest hundreds of billions of tax dollars, you might want to consider what the Swedes did in the early nineties. They made sure that they did not simply bail out failing private businesses by buying up worthless assets but in fact made a strategic investment that helped their economy and also had a real long-term potential for profit.
 
It's interesting how this is perceived completely differently over here.

Over in the US it seems to be seen as a bailout of the fat cats so it's understandable that it's rather unpopular.

However over here it's seen as a bailout of the entire economy, so a no vote is utterly mystifying.
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Well, within the US, there is a general ignorance about the ramifications of the economy. We have not had a major downturn within my DAD'S lifetime, let alone mine. There is a complete mentality that it just can't happen.

Of course, when you actually open up and look at the numbers (something you're practically DISCOURAGED from doing for yourself...) you start realizing exactly how screwed we are. Not only CAN it happen... It looks quite inevitable.

So that then presents the following conundrum. I can pay $2,200+ per person or I can lose 50% or more of the value of my house... The damage is already done. The looting has already taken place. The only choice left is if I want to get punched in the gut, or kicked in the balls. Of course, it doesn't get presented that way, because then people would be (rightfully) pissed off. Instead government tries to slip in bailouts through the back door and under the radar, while the news media blathers on about celebrity arrests and whatnot.

The economy is seen as something to be worried about by the fat cats. "The economy doesn't really affect me," is the common thought. So a bailout of the economy automatically equals a bailout of the fat cats to the general population. There is no realization of how screwed we'd ALL be in a depression, and no realization of how likely there will be one.
 
minator said:
It's interesting how this is perceived completely differently over here.

Over in the US it seems to be seen as a bailout of the fat cats so it's understandable that it's rather unpopular.

However over here it's seen as a bailout of the entire economy, so a no vote is utterly mystifying.
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It's being sold as a bailout of the whole economy but it isn't. Britain is interested in the passage of this bill as it would bail out a lot of UK banks with bad "investments" (i.e. bad bets) in US instruments too. But it really is for fat cats and not for the economy as a whole.

If the issue is liquidity, i.e. having money in the system, then the US government could set up it's own credit window and loan to where the money is needed directly like to the businesses that need rolling credit to run. They could nationalize the Federal Reserve to do it, and that would also handily solve a giant chunk of their debt problem at the same time as the government would then owe the money to itself and not to the Federal Reserve.

The mortgages that are going bad are not that many compared to the total number (yet) but there is too much leverage so a few failures turn into big failures further up. The government can do something about getting these loans renegotiated at the banks cost (as it should be because they're gonna lose on default anyway) and they can, but the biggest problem is all the leveraged derivatives that are private side bets between institutions that don't have regulation.

Those bets are then traded as money but they don't really have any value (so it's as if a giant counterfeiting operation has generated tens of times the money that used to be in circulation). These instruments have been used to acquire (not make, just get a hold of) wealth. Now, if they are worthless, then all the power that goes along with having all that "money" goes away. That's what's being protected. The power that goes along with the money. If the people that have it can get the government to take all their worthless money and turn it into "real" money then they will be very happy even if they only see 50c on the dollar. To try to make sure they can get that they will squeeze the economy by withholding liquidity and shouting about what a crisis it all is. They can easily manage this as there aren't that many big institutions that need to collude to do the job - so they can blackmail the entire country (as they have done before) to try to get their guy in the Treasury to be given near dictatorial powers to transfer taxpayer obligation in return for bad bets.

That's what's going on. The wealth that was always there (real things, like cars and roads and food etc) still exists, but the accounting system is being gamed. The government can fix the problem by fixing the accounting system rather than pledging the productive income of the US population in virtual perpetuity to the people who made the mess.
 
redrumloa said:
It is a sad day in America when I agree with butterball :cry:
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So will you pay to see his latest movie about the credit crunch?
 
Glaucus said:
redrumloa said:
It is a sad day in America when I agree with butterball :cry:
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So will you pay to see his latest movie about the credit crunch?
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Only if MM will pay to see "An American Carol" which I plan to spend money on. :-)

Regards,
Ltstanfo
 
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