Chemtrails, fact or fiction?

It depends. If the trails came from Turkey, then they're definitely chem trials and we should bomb the crap out of them. If they came from anywhere else, it's nothing to worry about.
 
ltstanfo said:
Do you think something is going on?
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No, I think most likely they are just contrails. That said, I don't rule it out completely simply because I do not trust our government.
 
It would be a good way to spray stuff secretly if you were determined to do so. There are a small number of refiners so not too many people to bribe. Other than the few folks who put in the additives, no-one else need know. Plus it looks the same as not adding anything.

That is - if you put it in the fuel. This means that whatever you are adding needs to survive the combustion chamber.

If it was too heat sensitive then you would be in a heap of trouble as engines would have to be built for the purpose and there would be extra tanks and too many people would have to fill the extra tanks and too many maintenance people would find these things.

Another downsides to spraying by contrails is at the altitude you see them you can't really control who or what they are gonna come down on. OTOH if the stuff is supposed to stay up then that's another story.

There have been suggestions that fuel additives could prevent global warming much like the sulphur particle plan recently discussed here. In fact an interesting study conducted on Sept 11, 12, 13 of 2001 when all the planes were grounded seemed to indicate that surface temperatures can be effected by contrails blocking sunlight and retaining overnight heat.
 
redrumloa said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_ ... acy_theory

On April 27, 2009, musical recording artist Prince referenced chemtrails in an interview with PBS talk show host Tavis Smiley. In the interview, Prince discusses a comment by comedian and activist Dick Gregory that "really hit home" about what Prince calls "this phenomenon of chemtrails." Prince goes on to mention an increase in aircraft trails that coincided with an inexplicable increase in "fighting and arguing" in his neighborhood
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I love this quote. It's about as useful as the claims of increased crimes during full moons.

People are built to identify patterns. We often can find a pattern even when one doesn't truly exist. Pareidolia is a a good example of this effect. When events happen close to one another they are easier to remember. However, that doesn't make them dependent on each other.

Turns out crimes don't show any statistical increase during a full moon. It's simply easier to remember events in proximity. This one off example from Prince is mildly interesting. It is insignificant until any collaborating evidence can be proven.
 
faethor said:
People are built to identify patterns. We often can find a pattern even when one doesn't truly exist. Pareidolia is a a good example of this effect. When events happen close to one another they are easier to remember. However, that doesn't make them dependent on each other.

Turns out crimes don't show any statistical increase during a full moon. It's simply easier to remember events in proximity. This one off example from Prince is mildly interesting. It is insignificant until any collaborating evidence can be proven.
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I agree with you completely on the Prince quote, but not so sure on the full moon / crime one. Having known many police offiers, including a related high ranking one, they swear by it. I would think senior officers could detect patterns. As a matter of fact I will see one tomorrow, i will ask him if they ever studied trends or if it was just gut feeling.
 
redrumloa said:
faethor said:
Turns out crimes don't show any statistical increase during a full moon. It's simply easier to remember events in proximity. This one off example from Prince is mildly interesting. It is insignificant until any collaborating evidence can be proven.
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I agree with you completely on the Prince quote, but not so sure on the full moon / crime one. Having known many police offiers, including a related high ranking one, they swear by it. I would think senior officers could detect patterns. As a matter of fact I will see one tomorrow, i will ask him if they ever studied trends or if it was just gut feeling.
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Wikipedia has a couple of good studies related to Lunar Effects. This is simply a urban legend that continues to be perputated.
 
redrumloa said:
I agree with you completely on the Prince quote, but not so sure on the full moon / crime one. Having known many police offiers, including a related high ranking one, they swear by it. I would think senior officers could detect patterns. As a matter of fact I will see one tomorrow, i will ask him if they ever studied trends or if it was just gut feeling.
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Unfortunately, a police officer is the wrong person to ask. You want to ask a statistician. One person's account is meaningless.

As for the chemtrails, it bothers me that people jump to such conclusions. Fluffy said it would be a great way to spray stuff secretly, except that it's a terrible way to spray stuff secretly as it seems to have captured the interest of a lot of people. More likely we're seeing variations in contrails based on air temp variations and variations in altitude and new plane designs. Perhaps new more efficient engines create more water vapor or burn fuel at higher/lower temps that make a more pronounced con trail pattern, or the air temp at those altitudes has warmed or cooled affecting it. These are probably more likely to explain this then chemicals. Not sure why you'd want to spray chems that high up anyway. So far above the clouds, the chems wouldn't affect cloud or rain in any way and would probably drift over the ocean before they disperse.

I guess people will always need a Lock Ness Monster or a Big Foot to keep themselves entertained.
 
I think this stems from paranoia. One can't control the government so are worried the government is abusing them at every turn. Of course the government themselves play into this. They've sprayed harmless bacteria into the air off of buildings in Minneapolis to test the dispersal effects. They've exploded light bulbs with bacteria in them in the NYC subway for the same reason. It's important to know what the effects of such a terrorist attack may be. The more paranoid among us believe it's our own government attacking the citizens.

Certainly degrees of paranoia impose outcomes in our lives. The Autism crowd believed mecury in vaccines to be an issue. Due to political pressures the government removed mecury. The effect it had was in vaccine lifespan and cost. Autism rates were uneffected.

Of course this can also be a force for good. Take for example the pressure of the homosexual community to remove homosexuality from being a psychological condition. In 73 homosexuality was removed from most of the DSM.
 
redrumloa said:
There is a reason people don't trust the government.
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Unfortunately this sometimes plays out in the worst ways. The last link talked about the horror caused by Medicine. One can't compare the horror caused by 'Alternative Medicine'. People use the A.M. because they don't trust the government, doctors, etc. so instead drink some solution at 1 part per 10 Million of X and believe this will save them. They have given up on any rationality.

For example : Hulda Regehr Clark gave millions false hope for her books "The Cure for All Cancers" and "The Cure for all Diseases". She was even a victim of her own device. She died of cancer. One can only guess the numbers she's killed because the end user threw out rationality and trusted some Woo-Woo over their doctor. A.M. users claim medicine is corrupted by big $. They forget to look at the alternative and understand that's far worse.

A.M. preys on this government hatred. Often using it as a selling point. Kevin Trudeau is one such suckster. He sells his books with how he's risking government persecution to bring you this evidence. When the government shuts down such snake oil salesmen they've already convinced their audidence it's just another sign of how right they truly are. The fine of millions against Trudeau simply gave the ignorant an excuse to remain ignorant. Truly sad.

This gets back to Global Warming posts. The anti-GW crowd decrys the corruption of science because of government funding. Yet fail to remove the mote from their own eye and accept other information corrupted by oil and big tobacco money publications, 'Energy and the Environment' or think tanks such as CATO, Heartland, or CEI.

A hypersensitive fear of 'big brother' imposes it's own ignorance. It's through ignorance that people derive strength from things such as Woo-Woo Medicine.
 
@Red..

Another point of data read up on Dr Tshabalala-Msimang the ex-health minister in South Africa. She recently died. She was one that 'saw' the $ in Western Medicine and through her actions denied this to a nation. She believed, wrongly of course, that HIV and AIDS were unrelated. Thousands were denied medical treatments which would have improved their quality of life. A minimal estimate is 300,000 with AIDS were impacted for her ignorance built from distrust of Western societies. That's a lot of impact to encourage beetroot eating over science because you don't trust the other governments. A great example of the impact of allowing the fear of 'big brother' push one to ignorance.
 
faethor said:
A.M. users claim medicine is corrupted by big $.
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And it is.


They forget to look at the alternative and understand that's far worse.
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True, lot's of alternative medicine is dangerous nonsense.

To quote Dara O'Briain:
“Herbal medicine’s been around for thousands of years! Indeed it has. And then we tested it all, and the stuff that worked became medicine."
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faethor said:
People use the A.M. because they don't trust the government, doctors, etc. so instead drink some solution at 1 part per 10 Million of X and believe this will save them. They have given up on any rationality.
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At least such cures do no harm - and by that I mean that they are not themselves causitive of death or disease. In many cases they can be as effective as modern medicine because many diseases respond to placebo effects. Most "real" drugs benefit from placebo effects. New drugs work better than the same drugs a few years later because people don't believe in old drugs as much as they believe in new drugs.

There is an implied harm if someone takes a placebo instead of a demonstrably better treatment but in a huge number of areas the "real" treatments are not DEMONSTRABLY better or are only marginally better but with potentially devastating side effects.

Each year more people are directly killed or in some way injured by pharmaceuticals than by homeopathic remedies. Snake oil has been dressed up in science for more than a century now and that's on the medical as well as the alternative side of the fence. Very few people are willing to put their products to truly open and honest testing that could so negatively effect the bottom line.
 
Glaucus said:
Fluffy said it would be a great way to spray stuff secretly, except that it's a terrible way to spray stuff secretly as it seems to have captured the interest of a lot of people.
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Did I not put enough caveats in my post?
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
At least such cures do no harm - and by that I mean that they are not themselves causitive of death or disease.
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IMO if you tell someone this water will cure their cancer and they don't seek treatment you are doing harm. If my friend tells me he's going to kill someone and I give him a weapon sure I didn't directly kill the victim.

If you want examples of A.M. which have killed people -- rebirthing is one, acupuncture is another.

In many cases they can be as effective as modern medicine because many diseases respond to placebo effects. Most "real" drugs benefit from placebo effects. New drugs work better than the same drugs a few years later because people don't believe in old drugs as much as they believe in new drugs.
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There's not just placebo effects from the treatment itself but also from the administrator of the treatment. Ideally a drug needs to have better than placebo effect in order to be sent out as a treatment for a disease. (Yes the system isn't prefect these are people afterall. But, far, far more drugs are effective at better than placebo effects than A.M.)

There is an implied harm if someone takes a placebo instead of a demonstrably better treatment but in a huge number of areas the "real" treatments are not DEMONSTRABLY better or are only marginally better but with potentially devastating side effects.
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Examples please where water is better than treatment?

Each year more people are directly killed or in some way injured by pharmaceuticals than by homeopathic remedies.
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This is but half the equation. Each year significantly more people are cured by pharmaceuticals than by homeopathic remedies, ZERO %.

Snake oil has been dressed up in science for more than a century now and that's on the medical as well as the alternative side of the fence. Very few people are willing to put their products to truly open and honest testing that could so negatively effect the bottom line.
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I agree that better testing is always a benefit. Take a look at the open and honest testing of A.M. NONE has been found beneficial.

A good recent transcript to read is Robert Wilson of the British Association of Homeopathic Manufacturers You have to love this line --
"Q1 Chairman: I wonder if I could start with you, Paul, this morning. You actually manufacture and sell homeopathic remedies. Do they work beyond the placebo effect, very briefly?
...
Mr Bennett: I have no evidence before me to suggest that they are efficacious, and we look very much for the evidence to support that, and so I am unable to give you a yes or no answer to that question."
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Glaucus said:
Fluffy said it would be a great way to spray stuff secretly, except that it's a terrible way to spray stuff secretly as it seems to have captured the interest of a lot of people.
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Did I not put enough caveats in my post?
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Nah, sorry I didn't mean for my post to be taken as a direct reply to your post. I meant to build on your post but it came across as a reply to you. I should have said something like this instead: "Like Fluffy stated some believe using airliners is a great way to secretly spray chems..." Didn't mean to imply that you also believe that. Please disregard.
 
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