Congress tells Europe "Go F yourself!"

[redrumloa]

Congress blocks indiscriminate IMF aid for Europe
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/am ... or-europe/

Europe may have to clean up its own mess after all. The US Senate has voted 94:0 to block use of taxpayers’ money for IMF rescues that make no economic sense or bail-outs for countries like Greece that far are beyond the point of no return.

“This amendment will help prevent American taxpayer dollars from underwriting dysfunctional governments abroad,” said Texas Senator John Cornyn, the chief sponsor. “American taxpayers have seen more bailouts than they can stomach, and the last thing they should have to worry about are their hard-earned tax dollars being used to rescue a foreign government. Greece is not by any stretch of the imagination too big to fail.”

Co-sponsor David Vitter from Louisiana said America had run out of money. “Our country already owes trillions of dollars in debt. We simply can’t afford to take on other countries’ debt in addition to our own.”

 

[Glaucus]

He's right, Greece isn't too big to fail. However a Greek failure WILL take down with it the rest of the Mediterranean states and most likely the UK as well. Also, it'll be cheaper to bail out Greece then the UK, Spain, Portugal, Italy and oh yeah Ireland. Not bailout those will probably cost the US way more in the end. The US is saving a dime to waste a buck later.

 

[redrumloa]

I disagree. It is ridiculous to expect the US to bail out any country, let alone the entire EU. Socialism needs to survive on it's own merits or it needs to die. This is a hard lesson in reality that needs to play out, just as California *SHOULD* have to feel the pain.

How funny just a year or so ago the Euro was all the rage, even American rappers flashing it in their music videos. This perception is changing rather quick, isn't it?

http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=EURUSD= ... z=m&q=c&c=

We could see dollar-euro parity in a few months and even dollar over taking the Euro, which was an unheard of concept just 6 months ago.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Congress blocks indiscriminate IMF aid for Europe
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/am ... or-europe/

This is interesting on several levels. First, it tips the US hand. It makes pretty publicly overt what is normally kept a little further from the headlines, that is - the US runs the IMF which makes the IMF an instrument of US policy. It's purpose is to extract as much tribute from nations as possible. Letting Greece go down and batter the EU is probably more of a warning than future policy. Pull the trigger on Greece to scare the bejeebers out of the other guys and get them to swallow austerity programs (rather than do the sensible thing and nationalize credit creation).

The criterion that the IMF not fund countries with debts of over 100% GDP will ensure that Greece doesn't get funds but will also likely ensure that it never repays its debt as GDP will certainly plunge while the debt can only grow (compound interest really is magic) putting the country at 200% of GDP in pretty short order and maybe worse.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

I disagree. It is ridiculous to expect the US to bail out any country, let alone the entire EU.

True enough. Only the people who stole all the money should be paying it back. But that won't happen. They've bought all the necessary governments to make sure of that. Even so, with US debt at 13 Trillion and GDP at 14.6 Trillion, the US is getting pretty close to not being bailed out by the IMF itself. Truth be told, if state debt and municipal debts were added in the US would be in 160% territory at least.

Socialism needs to survive on it's own merits or it needs to die. This is a hard lesson in reality that needs to play out, just as California *SHOULD* have to feel the pain.

Of course, for socialism to have a chance the government needs to own the central bank and regulate and enforce banking practices to prevent rampant fraud, that is the REAL lesson for socialists. Don't let private banks run your economy. California could have helped itself by accepting its own IOUs and thus creating a parallel currency but that would have hurt the private banks and they made sure it wouldn't happen. California should have it's own bank.

We could see dollar-euro parity in a few months and even dollar over taking the Euro, which was an unheard of concept just 6 months ago.

The Canadian dollar has been hanging close to parity for a while now. The Euro could be heading for parity, in fact I bet there are people working on that right now. The Pound will likely get there too. And when all those currencies have been one for one for a while we'll see the Fox and other Murdoch news sources advocating for a single currency (won't that make life easier?) - but who will own that currency? Doubtless some rich banking family rather than, say, the people of the world.

 

[redrumloa]

And when all those currencies have been one for one for a while we'll see the Fox and other Murdoch news sources advocating for a single currency (won't that make life easier?) - but who will own that currency? Doubtless some rich banking family rather than, say, the people of the world.

That would be nightmarish, but I don't think they can pull it off. There was a silent push towards the "Amero", but it didn't happen. As watered down as the US has become, I still don't think this would be accepted. I certainly wouldn't put it past Obama, but I doubt he has the support to even attempt such a thing.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

That would be nightmarish, but I don't think they can pull it off. There was a silent push towards the "Amero", but it didn't happen. As watered down as the US has become, I still don't think this would be accepted. I certainly wouldn't put it past Obama, but I doubt he has the support to even attempt such a thing.

Don't be silly. This isn't something the politicians are pushing. This will be pushed on the politicians but first the conditions have to be set. The time frame probably puts it out past Obama even if he gets another term. But what about the next president, Republican or Democrat, it won't matter. It will be determined by the American aristocracy. If they see it to be in their interest, it will happen. If they feel it would favour other countries too much they will stay stand-offish. Strength of local aristocracy is one reason that the UK never joined the Euro. They can't run it so they don't want it.

 

[the_leander]

I disagree. It is ridiculous to expect the US to bail out any country

What if it is due to US companies screwing up that some of these countries are in trouble? (See countries with huge percentages of their economy based in international banking).

Greece is something else from what I've seen. It's primary issues were down to a populous who view tax dodging as a national pastime coupled with a government who not only didn't do anything to stop it, but upped their borrowing. In time they would have had to have reigned in their spending of course (I suspect Germany would have said something sooner rather than later anyway), but it could have been done without crisis.

let alone the entire EU.

If Greece goes, there is a very good chance that several other countries will go down with it (Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland). The UK is teetering, as it stands we're ok albeit in for a very rough couple of years thanks to having to bail out the financial industry. However, if those Eurozone countries fall, we're all fucked for a generation (and by we, I mean the US as well).

Socialism needs to survive on it's own merits or it needs to die.

It's funny, as the larger crisis has absolutely nothing to do with Socialism, but everything down to the unfettered and unregulated Capitalism of the international banking industry, which is lead by the US.

This is a hard lesson in reality that needs to play out, just as California *SHOULD* have to feel the pain.

Or, maybe you folks could sort out your {bleep} financial industry and implement the recommendations of the reports made during the 1930's and separate high street banking from stocks and shares trading. If US politicians weren't in the pockets of these people and had done as they were recommended back then and coupled that with functioning regulation, we wouldn't be talking about this now. I also aim that at the UK as well, since many of our banks were also in on it this time around.

I'd also argue that these supersized companies need to be broken up for good - no one company should have such size as to be able to tank the economy of an entire country on its own should it fall.

We could see dollar-euro parity in a few months and even dollar over taking the Euro, which was an unheard of concept just 6 months ago.

Only if Greece falls, should the rest of the EU sort them out and they manage to hold the line, I suspect the Euro will rebound a lot quicker than either Sterling or USD. I would also think that new controls will be brought in by the EU to allow for central control when a government within the Eurozone screws up as completely as the Greeks have. I can't see the Germans allowing this to ever happen again.

 

[redrumloa]

Or, maybe you folks could sort out your {bleep} financial industry and implement the recommendations of the reports made during the 1930's and separate high street banking from stocks and shares trading. If US politicians weren't in the pockets of these people and had done as they were recommended back then and coupled that with functioning regulation, we wouldn't be talking about this now. I also aim that at the UK as well, since many of our banks were also in on it this time around.

I'd also argue that these supersized companies need to be broken up for good - no one company should have such size as to be able to tank the economy of an entire country on its own should it fall.

I've got my issues with Goldman Sachs and the US government, you can bet your ass on that. However last time I checked, the US does not regulate or set Greek banking laws nor any EU laws. I fail to see where the US invaded and forced Greece to deal with G$. Sounds like a scapegoat for Greek incompetance.

In the US borders I do blame both G$ and our government, since our government doesn't enforce laws on the books. G$ does need to be broken up and a thumb put on them.

 

[minator]

He's right, Greece isn't too big to fail. However a Greek failure WILL take down with it the rest of the Mediterranean states and most likely the UK as well. Also, it'll be cheaper to bail out Greece then the UK, Spain, Portugal, Italy and oh yeah Ireland. Not bailout those will probably cost the US way more in the end. The US is saving a dime to waste a buck later.

The problem isn't economic collapse, it's what happens afterwards.
Last time this happened the result was World War II.

 

[the_leander]

I've got my issues with Goldman Sachs and the US government, you can bet your ass on that. However last time I checked, the US does not regulate or set Greek banking laws nor any EU laws. I fail to see where the US invaded and forced Greece to deal with G$. Sounds like a scapegoat for Greek incompetance.

Given that this all started due to US not bothering to regulate their own markets, and that the US has shown the IMF to be little more than a front, you simply cannot walk away from this that easily.

Yes, the Greeks were absolutely negligent in their handling of their economy, unfortunately what you don't seem to be getting is if they fall, it will directly effect YOU. If the US govs (past and present, remember the solution to this was clear after the great depression) had been doing their job properly Greece right now rather than looking over the edge of an abyss would instead simply be getting a damn good kicking from the Germans for breaching EU regs with regard fiscal policy. The collapse in your country took what was a fragile situation and has turned it into a crisis.

If those countries fall, it'll directly effect your recovery. Isn't this brave new interconnected world great?

In the US borders I do blame both G$ and our government, since our government doesn't enforce laws on the books. G$ does need to be broken up and a thumb put on them.

Them amongst others.