DieselGate

I hate to say it but I'm really not surprised although i am disappointed. Diesel cars have always been more expensive in the US compared to the same gas engined model. Because of the increased price and an undeserved reputation for the old US diesels from the 1970s (very noisy, rattle and smoky), no one has sold enough of them to make a profit. As an example, my 2004 Passat TDI retailed at $24,5000 USD where as the gas engined equivelant sold for less than $19,000 USD.

Back in 2008 the new EPA emission regulations kicked in forcing all diesel car manufacturers to further limit NOX output. Older diesel engines like the one in my 04 Passat (PD TDi) would never meet the requirements. The "cure" was to be found in the form of the "AddBlue" (aka urea) system which added a fair chunk of change to an already high price (between $5-10K USD depending on size of motor). VW apparently faked emission results for the smaller cars using a clever software trick that was finally caught. The larger systems did have AddBlue but all 2009-2015 VW TDi's are apparently impacted so VW has caused a real mess for themselves. Also, as a result of VW's effort to keep costs down (and maximize profit) there will apparently be no 2016 diesel certificate issued.

I'm curious to see what the EPA and their Canadian equivalent have to say as their investigations unfold. I'm seeing a large fine and a likely forced (expensive) recall and long term damage to VW's reputation with the diesel community. I'll be curious to see if Mercedes and BMW get the same scrutiny as a result of VW's epic fail.

As for me? I'm still a diesel fan. It's a great alternative to those silly shoe box electric cars (they are neat but no where near as green as people think) but the public was duped into thinking diesel was as clean as VW advertized. I'm keeping my 04 TDi until it croaks. :)

Regards,
ltstanfo
 
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If I were a betting man, I would wager that the "recall" to "fix" the problem means that the affected diesels, once patched, will both run worse and get worse gas mileage...

It's sad though. As much as I groan about "VW only maintenance" for my Passat, I still would have placed a TDI Passat near the top of my replacement list should something happen to my current car... Yes, it may not be financially prudent, but on the other hand, there's something about seeing your car get 50+ mpg between DC and Alabama that makes it worth it (as opposed to the 19mpg of my former Dodge RAM)... Even further, I was still holding out hope for a TDI Tiguan. I'm guessing I'm out of luck now... :(
 
Would really like to know the details of this. I see the phrase "defeat device" bandied about but when does "optimisation for test conditions" cross over to "defeat device"?
 
As I understand it, the car's software is set up in such a way as to detect the presence of testing software, then alter its operations to "defeat" the test.

It's another headline grab about nothing really important at all. My dad's former Dodge RAM diesel with a Cummins engine had a similar (albeit hardware) switch that changed the ECU's software from "eco" mode, to normal driving mode, to "haul the battleship around the yard" mode...

Lee's vDub isn't affected, but it means that later TDIs (if they're not summarily banned from the roads) won't be able to "black smoke bomb" people who tailgate (as he takes great pride in doing)... :)

Wayne
 
This is not directly relating to the exact nature of the "defeat device" which I haven't found described in any technical detail but it does point out that the software that runs engines is as protected from government inspection as the software that runs voting machines. It's because of the DMCA.
 
Volkswagen Uses Software to Fool EPA Pollution Tests

EPA named five types of four-cylinder diesels—the Audi A3, Beetle, Golf, Jetta and Passat, all of which have the same engine—in its notice.

EPA did not issue a recall and said the cars remain safe and legal to drive and also legal to sell.
Click to expand...

The German carmaker’s emissions-testing cheat reveals how car companies and regulators negotiate tradeoff between fuel efficiency and performance


What Are Diesel Emissions?

http://www.nettinc.com/information/emissions-faq/what-are-diesel-emissions
 
metalman said:
Volkswagen Uses Software to Fool EPA Pollution Tests
Click to expand...

Finally. Thanks metalman - something that describes the algorithm a bit.

“[The device] senses whether the vehicle is being tested or not based on various inputs including the position of the steering wheel, vehicle speed, the duration of the engine’s operation and barometric pressure,” the violation notice reads. “These inputs precisely track the parameters of the federal test procedure” used for EPA certification, it reads.
Click to expand...

So .. in other words - optimizing for the test conditions. I think they could argue that's not a defeat device but a consequence of a high degree of tuning. :)
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
So .. in other words - optimizing for the test conditions. I think they could argue that's not a defeat device but a consequence of a high degree of tuning. :)
Click to expand...

VW had two modes their Diesels could run under. One was low-emissions; the other was high performance driving, with higher-emissions.

smog-testing diesels began only a few years ago, the emissions regulations specify that cars must meet the emissions standards "at the time of testing", which the vw's did ;) All manufacturers game the EPA and CAFE ratings

For testing EPA uses a stationary dyno which would cause computer monitoring of traction or stability control to detect a dangerous situation, ( only the drive wheels would rotate the other wheels would be stationary ),so the guess is the cars had a special dyno calibration mode. VW did this to avoid having to have DEF/Urea (e.g. piss ) exhaust injection emission system on those model diesel cars.

At 40 MPG, the carbon footprint of a 4 cylinder diesel is pretty light, making them emissions compliant reduces power and mileage.
The reduced power and torque of the newer diesel emission compliant trucks, has helped my older 7.3 Liter, 8 cylinder, turbo diesel truck maintain its value
 
Actually Wayne, your TDi Tiguan exists... just not here in the USA. Still, as a bit of temptation...

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1089196_volkswagen-tiguan-tdi-forbidden-fruit-drive-report

Alas, as I mentioned previously, cost is the real diesel killer in the US market as the link above alludes to. Just remember that the article is from 2013.

Regards,
ltstanfo

Wayne said:
If I were a betting man, I would wager that the "recall" to "fix" the problem means that the affected diesels, once patched, will both run worse and get worse gas mileage...

It's sad though. As much as I groan about "VW only maintenance" for my Passat, I still would have placed a TDI Passat near the top of my replacement list should something happen to my current car... Yes, it may not be financially prudent, but on the other hand, there's something about seeing your car get 50+ mpg between DC and Alabama that makes it worth it (as opposed to the 19mpg of my former Dodge RAM)... Even further, I was still holding out hope for a TDI Tiguan. I'm guessing I'm out of luck now... :(
Click to expand...
 
ltstanfo said:
cost is the real diesel killer in the US market
Click to expand...
I understand that, but really, it's like Hybrids at this point. They don't make economic sense, but owning one gives the greenies a warm and fuzzy feeling. Being able to drive home on less than a tank of gas would make me happy, even if it were slightly more expensive to fill and maintain...
 
Well Winterkorn has fallen on his sword but....
/Tinfoil Hat time

Makes you wonder if the former ousted CEO of VW didn't drop a sneaky heads up to the relevant testing authority ?
 
Wayne said:
I understand that, but really, it's like Hybrids at this point. They don't make economic sense, but owning one gives the greenies a warm and fuzzy feeling.
Click to expand...

e.g. they're buying an indulgence for their sins against the Gaia
 
Wayne said:
I understand that, but really, it's like Hybrids at this point. They don't make economic sense, but owning one gives the greenies a warm and fuzzy feeling. Being able to drive home on less than a tank of gas would make me happy, even if it were slightly more expensive to fill and maintain...
Click to expand...

I dunno, I really do have a special place in my heart for the BMW i8.

Thing looks like it's out of StarTrek.
 
 
metalman said:
[...] Volkswagen was not alone in finding ways to pass laboratory tests.
Click to expand...
Duh!
People build stuff to pass the tests required to comply with the law. And it's not just car manufacturers. There's full on test fakery goes on in all types of industries from fiddling factory emissions to be low when (more like if) the inspectors come by or getting rid of negative data from medical trials or chemical safety data. Anyone who insists on playing it completely straight will lose out to those willing to cheat a little who, in turn, will lose out to those willing to cheat a lot - especially when the government takes itself out of the business of testing and enforcing the law.
 
Well, that and there are no secrets for long in the auto industry. If the other manufacturers didn't know how Volkswagen passed their tests before the cars were released, certainly they did within a week of their release when they each bought a few and tore them down, cataloging each part. Competitive car teardowns are completely commonplace.

And when they see what Volkswagen did and got away with, they'd either report it or follow and do the same thing. And since it took this long to come out, it doesn't look like they reported it... So we know which they did.
 
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