Difference Between Now and The Great Depression?

Dammy

Dammy

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All through out the Great Depression, the US had a AAA rating!
 
Hmm, differences. Let's see... More people starved in the Great Depression?
 
Karlos said:
Damn Red, when I grow up, I hope I am that optimistic :)
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It would be nice to think that America could get itself out of this morass, but when we have had years of morons (the wonderful bush/cheney years especially) aided by the Pat Robertson douchbags of this country it's was obvious to me long ago that rational thinking is fighting a losing battle with these dopes.

there's a reason why religious kooks are getting so much airplay: it's because people don't Want to Think. It's too scary to hoist yourself up by your bootstraps and think your way to solving problems
 
So the US lost it's AAA rating and was downgraded to AA+. And this is 100% totally and utterly Obama's fault because he allowed the country to get into such a state. At least that's the vibe I'm getting.

Hang on a minute though, didn't the Bush administration raise the debt ceiling a few times during it's tenure? I seem to recall something along the lines of a several trillion dollar increase in debt in each of Bush's two terms in office. Perhaps someone has the actual figures?
 
Karlos said:
Damn Red, when I grow up, I hope I am that optimistic :)
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There are structural differences between then and now. Back then more people were farmers - more people were involved in food production and while crops failed in many places there were still areas to move to. There were many more businesses that were independent of each other and more things were still human powered - people were necessary parts of industry and agriculture.

These days oil is the preferred source of labour and agriculture is owned by far fewer people. Monsanto owns seed and a few big businesses own agriculture. I many ways the modern systems are much more efficient but that is also their great weakness. You can knock a fair percentage of the blocks out of any given pyramid and you'll still have something that looks a lot like a pile of stones. If you try the same trick with a highly optimized structure like the Eiffel Tower you'll find while there is less material overall, much more of the structure is actually necessary.
 
Karlos said:
And this is 100% totally and utterly Obama's fault because he allowed the country to get into such a state.
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I think it's been mentioned around these parts already that S&P made a point of casting a portion of blame on the Republicans for playing politics with the debt ceiling.
The US need never default because it can always print money to pay its bills. Certainly this is a cost to the lender as it devalues the dollars he gets back - but would be much worse for the lender if he suddenly couldn't get anything back because politicians had decided that they weren't going to allow the creation of dollars to cover the debt. Squeaking the debt ceiling up while not solving the economy means that anyone buying US debt needs to face the uncertainty of not getting paid out on maturity because of another political game of chicken. The full faith of the US seems not so faithful.
(Faith being just another word for trust).
 
Karlos said:
Damn Red, when I grow up, I hope I am that optimistic :)
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I was the eternal optimistic up until about mid 2006. You really weren't around much until recently so you missed the fact that Fluffy and I called this crisis pretty spot on as far back as 06 on Whyzzat in "Downfall of Rome" threads and others. Fluffy and I are from opposite ends of the political spectrum but we saw the same thing coming and the mostly the same villains. Most others here scoffed at the ideas put forward back then, but most things either came true, coming true or at the very least not scoffed at. I started badmouthing Bush back in about late 05. You could claim I was late to the party if you wish, but in my eyes I saw a major shift in his domestic policy. As soon as Bush went bailout crazy, I wanted nothing to do with defending him.

Anyhow you may see me as a pessimist, but I see myself as a realist. Most people refuse to see the worst case scenario, but it is a very real possibility and looking more likely every day. Prepare yourself the best you can and have a plan should the grocery stores shut down and marauding armed gangs start murdering families for resources.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
I think it's been mentioned around these parts already that S&P made a point of casting a portion of blame on the Republicans for playing politics with the debt ceiling.
The US need never default because it can always print money to pay its bills. Certainly this is a cost to the lender as it devalues the dollars he gets back - but would be much worse for the lender if he suddenly couldn't get anything back because politicians had decided that they weren't going to allow the creation of dollars to cover the debt. Squeaking the debt ceiling up while not solving the economy means that anyone buying US debt needs to face the uncertainty of not getting paid out on maturity because of another political game of chicken. The full faith of the US seems not so faithful.
(Faith being just another word for trust).
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The more I read and hear about the downgrade the more clear that global politics are at play here. Warren Buffet made a statement against the downgrade and the next day S&P downgrades Birkshire Hathway. The US has a lower rating than France? Come on now...
 
Relax Jim, I wasn't knocking you, just trying to lighten the mood a bit. On which note, if you genuinely believe it's the terminal slide then forewarned is forearmed, I can appreciate that. It just seems that it's become something of a spectator event in the process...
 
Karlos said:
Relax Jim, I wasn't knocking you, just trying to lighten the mood a bit. On which note, if you genuinely believe it's the terminal slide then forewarned is forearmed, I can appreciate that. It just seems that it's become something of a spectator event in the process...
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No sweat Karlos, I didn't mean to come back harsh. Sorry if it came off as such.
 
I understand that the 1930s were a stock market collapse, where as now it's the government facing a default. Technically, this should be harder to get one's self out of. However, the US was in danger of default mostly because of political reasons, it's debt is still under 70% of GDP, which many consider to be non-critical. Stupid politics aside, the US government isn't in that rough shape, as compared to Europe for example. Still, what's happening in the US right now may cause problems in other places (like Europe) which may cause greater uncertainty in the markets. If Europe was rock solid, this whole thing in the US would be just a blip, but unfortunately that's not gonna be the case. The Euro is at risk and with it the US is also vulnerable, never mind the geopolitical fallout that may ensue. WW3 on the horizon? Let's hope not.
 
I should probably go back and read some of those old threads. Hard to believe I've actually been a member since the day the site opened, but there you go...
 
Karlos said:
Hang on a minute though, didn't the Bush administration raise the debt ceiling a few times during it's tenure? I seem to recall something along the lines of a several trillion dollar increase in debt in each of Bush's two terms in office. Perhaps someone has the actual figures?
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I've posted the graphic in a few threads here. Bush $5 Trillion, Obama $1.4 Trillion.
 
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