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East Germans Miss Communism?
- Thread starter redrumloa
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@Red, relatively speaking, E. Germany was perhaps the best off Soviet state at the time, better even then Russia itself. So I can see how someone could believe this, although I agree with you that I doubt many would want a return to the old days.
@Robert, 1993 is a long time ago, and I'd expect some turmoil after a major collapse. 1993 was tough even for West Germans as they poured money into E Germany. It might take a generation to recover.
@Robert, 1993 is a long time ago, and I'd expect some turmoil after a major collapse. 1993 was tough even for West Germans as they poured money into E Germany. It might take a generation to recover.
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Glaucus said:
That was part of my point. Back then there was still a prevailing sense of euphoria and, in general, the Western grass still looked greener.
The impression left on me was one of some people gradually realising it wasn't quite as green as they'd imagined.
No, I'm talking about disillusion. Some of the people who had actively campaigned for an end to communism had no idea what they were wishing for.
To give just one, simple example: people begging on the streets. Some of my friends had never seen such a thing.
One in particular, who had been an activist before the wall came down, had taken about two years to gradually come to the conclusion that she liked it better the way it was before.
Don't get me wrong, she hated the police state and the restrictions on travel but not quite as much as she hated the inequality, squalour and unemployment which was becoming more and more prevalent.
This isn't to say that all East Germans (or even a majority) felt this way but some certainly did - I know this through personal experince - and I'd imagine even more of those over 30 do now. (Those younger than that will have little in the way of a reference point to gauge against.)
Maybe you're right - maybe the years inbetween have convinced every last one of them that the new way is superior but, frankly, I'd be astonished if that were the case.
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Glaucus said:
And my personal experience from three years after the wall came down concurred with that.
And I've tried to explain that volatility had little, if anything to do with what I witnessed.
Likewise.
My guess would be that the majority would not wish to return to communism but *some* would and I certainly wouldn't be surprised if the numbers are greater today than they were in 1993 - the warm, fuzzy glow of "freedom" has had longer to wear off.
@ Red
As it happens, I was born in East Germany and still live in the area. One should not pay too much attention to what Ms. Honecker is saying (that 50% figure seems bogus), however, it is certainly true that a sizable portion of the people here wished the German Democratic Republic was still in existence in one form of another. A large majority of those do not actually wish to live back in an exact replica of the 'old' GDR, mind you. Their opinion is that it would have likely been a better move to make a number of changes to the GDR's economic and political system rather than to get hastily annected by West Germany with 'no questions asked'.
Here are a few things to consider:
1. In the early 70s, the GDR was considered to be the tenth biggest economic power of the world. (GDP per capita was higher than in the UK, for instance.) In the 80s, the economy did not develop as well but it was still more productive than in quite a number of 'capitalistic' countries. Needless to say, the GDR was by far the richest country of the Eastern Bloc.
2. One of the reasons why the GDR government had budget issues in the 80s is that they spend a lot of resources on the East German microchip industry. While it was most likely extremely naive to believe that a rather small country like the GDR could successfully compete with the combined IT know-how of the entire Western hemisphere, one has to acknowledge that focusing on state of the art technologies is not something a 'backwards third-world dictatorship" would have done.
3. There were private enterprises in East Germany. My grandparents had two private businesses for a while even. The economic system of the GDR could be described as "like capitalism except all big companies were owned by the government". Communism was a long-term goal, but it never existed in real life.
@ Robert
Yes. This is absolutely true. I remember a teacher of mine coming to class one morning looking terrified. On the day before, she had went to a city nearby (close to Leipzig) for a mandatory educational course for teachers. On that day, she saw somebody looking in a trashcan for food for the first time in her entire life .
She had never seen anything like it when the GDR still existed. It really traumatized her. There she was in a supposedly much wealthier country witnessing people who were so poor they had to eat trash. It just seemed so insane.
As it happens, I was born in East Germany and still live in the area. One should not pay too much attention to what Ms. Honecker is saying (that 50% figure seems bogus), however, it is certainly true that a sizable portion of the people here wished the German Democratic Republic was still in existence in one form of another. A large majority of those do not actually wish to live back in an exact replica of the 'old' GDR, mind you. Their opinion is that it would have likely been a better move to make a number of changes to the GDR's economic and political system rather than to get hastily annected by West Germany with 'no questions asked'.
Here are a few things to consider:
1. In the early 70s, the GDR was considered to be the tenth biggest economic power of the world. (GDP per capita was higher than in the UK, for instance.) In the 80s, the economy did not develop as well but it was still more productive than in quite a number of 'capitalistic' countries. Needless to say, the GDR was by far the richest country of the Eastern Bloc.
2. One of the reasons why the GDR government had budget issues in the 80s is that they spend a lot of resources on the East German microchip industry. While it was most likely extremely naive to believe that a rather small country like the GDR could successfully compete with the combined IT know-how of the entire Western hemisphere, one has to acknowledge that focusing on state of the art technologies is not something a 'backwards third-world dictatorship" would have done.
3. There were private enterprises in East Germany. My grandparents had two private businesses for a while even. The economic system of the GDR could be described as "like capitalism except all big companies were owned by the government". Communism was a long-term goal, but it never existed in real life.
@ Robert
Yes. This is absolutely true. I remember a teacher of mine coming to class one morning looking terrified. On the day before, she had went to a city nearby (close to Leipzig) for a mandatory educational course for teachers. On that day, she saw somebody looking in a trashcan for food for the first time in her entire life .
She had never seen anything like it when the GDR still existed. It really traumatized her. There she was in a supposedly much wealthier country witnessing people who were so poor they had to eat trash. It just seemed so insane.
There are definitely more people today questioning the wisdom behind the German 'unification' than there were in 1993. The recent economic crisis and the bank bailout certainly did not help to convince people of the superiority of capitalism. When the GDR stopped existing, camera teams went to the former homes of the last government's top officials and filmed how the East German 'elite' lived. Well, you can accuse these people of a lot of things (and I do) except for being greedy and stealing recklessly from their own people for their own personal gains...Glaucus said:
The most common points of criticism about the life in the GDR are as follows: 1. Ordinary citizens could not freely leave the country. 2. The demand for consumer goods (cars, TVs, etc.) exceeded the supply most of the time. 3. Freedom of speech was limited. 4. Elections were not quite as democratic as the country's name would suggest.
The most common points of criticism about the life in today's East Germany are: 1. Mass unemployment. (The unemployed do not necessarily live a bad life thanks to welfare transfers. However, they have nothing to do. No purpose in life. Nobody seems to care what and how they are doing. They feel worthless.) 2. The distribution of wealth and income is becoming increasingly unjust. 3. Elections are supposedly democratic but the politicians often do not seem to act in the interests of the people.
Yes, it was. But black markets exist everywhere. Saying that there was a black market in the GDR is probably not surprising whatsoever. But it might be interesting for some to find out that there were quite a number of legal private enterprises in a 'communist country', as defined by the article.Glaucus said:
The BBC did a poll that found widespread dissatisfaction with free-market capitalism in 27 countries:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8347409.stm
(Disclaimer: Never trust a poll, etc. Still, the results seem interesting.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8347409.stm
(Disclaimer: Never trust a poll, etc. Still, the results seem interesting.)
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JoBBo said:
Well, the poll would make more sense if we lived with free market capitalism. A free market exists where there is transparency and a market of peers. That doesn't exist. Capitalism exists where the means of production are privately controlled and profits are directed to improving the means of production. While that partially exists, a giant slice of profit goes to the financial casino instead of going into productive enterprise.
Capitalism is an attractive ideal, like point mass and other models, but it doesn't exist.
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I'd say what we need is more separation between corporations and the government. ACTA is something that really irks me and it's a great example of governments working for the best interests of corporations and not the people. We as voters should not tolerate this, but we have only ourselves to blame for not making it an issue. I'd say if governments just stopped colluding with corporations that would probably be enough.
Read more on ACTA here: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/11/the-acta-internet-provisions-dmca-goes-worldwide.ars
Read more on ACTA here: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2009/11/the-acta-internet-provisions-dmca-goes-worldwide.ars
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Robert said:
Obviously I've never experienced communist Poland or Germany, but I do believe that the Eastern Block fell too fast and the transition to what they think is Western Values was done without control or guidance. There should be no surprise that the people who lived through it are acting as if they are in shock. I think part of the problem is that back in the communist years, if you wanted to get anything of any value you'd turn to the black market. In such a system the black market is legitimized. When that society then goes through such a transformation I would be surprised to see people's perceptions of operating above the law to change. In Russia for example, corruption has seeped into every form of government and business and those who were unlucky to get their slice of the pie will have no choice but to be unhappy with the system. despite that, I don't think there's any real expectation for the corruption to be cleaned up.
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