Florida trying to legislate school prayer

Too bad they don't do that here, I'd teach my kid to recite satanic rituals in front of everyone.
 
redrumloa said:
So? Why would anyone be against the First Amendment?
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The problem is that the kind of prayer they want to allow is Christian prayer (and they've thrown the student government in the way to make sure only majority belief prayers will be heard) - so it's not a free speech issue and there is no free exercise of religion - this legislation would favour one religion over others.

As things stand right now without the legislation students are allowed to pray in school - they just aren't allowed to use up the time paid for by the state to do it since this interferes with the rights of the other students to get their education.

This legislation is just grand standing - it's politics.
 
Glaucus said:
Too bad they don't do that here, I'd teach my kid to recite satanic rituals in front of everyone.
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That would be freedom of speech too as long as everyone participating were doing so vouluntarily and not forced by teachers.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
The problem is that the kind of prayer they want to allow is Christian prayer (and they've thrown the student government in the way to make sure only majority belief prayers will be heard) - so it's not a free speech issue and there is no free exercise of religion - this legislation would favour one religion over others.

As things stand right now without the legislation students are allowed to pray in school - they just aren't allowed to use up the time paid for by the state to do it since this interferes with the rights of the other students to get their education.

This legislation is just grand standing - it's politics.
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Hogwash, muslim students are already allowed to wear religious garb and pray to the east any time they want.
 
redrumloa said:
That would be freedom of speech too as long as everyone participating were doing so vouluntarily and not forced by teachers.
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True, but it would get covered on the national front pages.
 
redrumloa said:
Hogwash, muslim students are already allowed to wear religious garb and pray to the east any time they want.
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Can they pray to the east if, as this legislation would require, the activity has to be approved by the student government?

By the way, Christian students are allowed to pray too. You're point indicates how unnecessary the legislation is.
 
if Buddhists (for example) wanted to pray all hell would break out
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Can they pray to the east if, as this legislation would require, the activity has to be approved by the student government?
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Sure, let it be some type of democratic process vs the oligarchy of what the school and or courts say what can and can not be said by the students.

By the way, Christian students are allowed to pray too. You're point indicates how unnecessary the legislation is.
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When were you in a Florida school last? When have you lived down here (about half of Canada is now living down here) and understand the different legal threats from either school admin or the courts that gagged students from talking about God or leading a prayer at graduation? When I was in school (riding dinosaurs was bumpy!), we had a minute of silence at the beginning of the school day plus the pledge of allegiance. They stopped the minute of silence (my Sr year, Chemistry was first period, and surprise quiz was good motivation for a request for divine intervention) since it had religious overtone. Prayer at sporting events, even if done by students on the field, was banned, graduations, the student President and valedictorian could not say God or give a prayer. That's not freedom of religion, that's tyranny by stifling religious expression.

Smacks of the Devil's Messiah program, IMO.
 
cecilia said:
if Buddhists (for example) wanted to pray all hell would break out
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Then allow them to do so. Same with Muslims, Hindi, or whateverfloatsyourboatreligion, they need to do a prayer, let them be! If they need to,let them go to a spiritual room and let them go at it for a reasonable time period so their education is not impeded. What is the definition of reasonable? Ask their religious institutions, I'm sure they have had centuries of teaching children in their schools and have it down like clock work.
 
I don't care who wants to pray but the "christians" who stupidly think that America was "founded" :lol: on christain values would have a shit fit
 
Dammy said:
Sure, let it be some type of democratic process vs the oligarchy of what the school and or courts say what can and can not be said by the students.
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"Democracy" as in tyranny of the majority? Either you allow all (without appeal to regional popularity) or you allow none. People have their own time to pray on and they don't have to do it while the government is paying the bill.

You've got lunch time - the kids can go off and have a little prayer if they like. If a kid has a break between classes he can go off and pray no-one cares. He can pray in the morning before he gets to school and pray in the evening when he gets out. He can even sit at his desk and pray discretely (unless it's one of those showy prayers with the eyes closed and head bowed and hands together kind of prayers that people do just so that everyone can see that they are praying). But if the teacher is in the class and the state is paying the hourly then no - and no if it's a group thing because why should the Jews have to sit in a bunch of praying Christians or a bunch of Muslims have to sit among a bunch of praying Christians just because they got out voted. THAT is not freedom of religion because now it is impinging on the rights of others NOT to pray or not to be made to feel uncomfortable about being of a different religion.

On the other hand, enforcing religious conformity is what this legislation is about and it is the unspoken rationale behind all similar legislation.
 
Dammy said:
Then allow them to do so. Same with Muslims, Hindi, or whateverfloatsyourboatreligion, they need to do a prayer, let them be! If they need to, let them go to a spiritual room and let them go at it for a reasonable time period so their education is not impeded.
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And the Christians too then. At a commencement the Christians can leave and go to a special room to pray instead of asking the "other people" to leave if they want to. If the Christians want to start class with a prayer then they should go early to a prayer room where they won't bother other students who don't want to pray so that they can be on time to their class without bothering other people.
Ask their religious institutions, I'm sure they have had centuries of teaching children in their schools and have it down like clock work.
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Of course they do. Indoctrinating children to believe ridiculous things before they develop the ability to examine these things rationally is a fundamental function of religion.
 
redrumloa said:
Let them pray.
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And today schools in Florida by both State and Federal laws can pray. The Prayer cannot, and should not, be formalized by the schools. Approving of the prayer or teacher lead prayer is State sponsored religion. The schools should be treating all religious people the same way and giving them the same conditions for prayer that the kids conduct on their own. So, if Jews can't have rooms and Muslims can the problem is at the understanding of the school district level, not the law. The School Board needs to be educated either by citizens that understand this at Board meetings or within courts.
 
faethor said:
The Prayer cannot, and should not, be formalized by the schools. Approving of the prayer or teacher lead prayer is State sponsored religion.
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I guess you missed this part?

voluntary, student-led prayer​
secondary school commencement exercises or any other noncompulsory student assembly​
school personnel would not be permitted to partake​
And today schools in Florida by both State and Federal laws can pray.
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No they can't and no they don't. At least not if they are Christian. What gave you that silly idea?
 
redrumloa said:
I guess you missed this part?

voluntary, student-led prayer​
secondary school commencement exercises or any other noncompulsory student assembly​
school personnel would not be permitted to partake​
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Not only must prayer be voluntary, but it must also be non-coercive. Having a bunch of students of one denomination being allowed to pray in a classroom, for example, gives the appearance of (in fact is) state sanction for that group and creates a coercive environment for students of another denomination or no denomination.
No they can't and no they don't. At least not if they are Christian. What gave you that silly idea?
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How about the ADL for a start. Or you could look here. Or maybe here.

If you practice discretely then you are fine. If you wanna be "in your face" about praying then you are stepping on the rights of other students.
 
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