How the health bill is see from abroad

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How this health bill is seen from abroad:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/8564159.stm

Some good quotes:
'One British left-winger used to say: "There are two parties in American politics; one is like our Conservative Party. So is the other."'

'This is where there is a cultural gulf. No Conservative party in Europe would touch Obama's proposals. They are far too right-wing.'


Edit: See from abroad? fixed..
 
I agree! A plan that forces one to pay for private insurance. Where the government helps the poorer by giving them money to again give to private industry. This is a form of fascism.
 
faethor said:
I agree! A plan that forces one to pay for private insurance. Where the government helps the poorer by giving them money to again give to private industry. This is a form of fascism.

Sounds more like a first step towards Communism to me.
 
redrumloa said:
faethor said:
I agree! A plan that forces one to pay for private insurance. Where the government helps the poorer by giving them money to again give to private industry. This is a form of fascism.
Sounds more like a first step towards Communism to me.
Italy's fascist system under Mussolini was one of corportism. Where the state funded the private businesses to carry out their agenda. In the case of the Obama plan the state doesn't directly care for health insurance or medical care. Instead they force people to give wealth to corporations.

Compare this to Costa Rica. (A claimed future home of some Republicans.) A corporate health insurance industry exists for only those who want coverage above the basics, say your wife wants a nose job for example. Here the state doesn't have a private hospital system. Here the state doesn't have doctors working for private businesses. Instead we see the state directly controlling medical care by owning and running the hospitals and doctors.

I have to wonder through this whole debate why Republicans hate veterans. Veterans get medical care through the VA. The VA is a hospital, doctor, and insurance system run directly by the government. Socialism at our finest. The bane of medical care. If Republicans truly hated this stuff they should be calling for the elimination of the VA. Do the Republicans truly care? When I consider this failure it appears to me the Republicans are more willing to be anti-Obama then to ruly support their confessed views.

Another thing I find intersting is "pro-lifers" don't support this. We have 40-50K people dying a year because they don't have healthcare. We have a number of people continually sick because they can't afford basic care. We have over 1/2 of our bankrupcies due to healthcare reasons. It clearly doesn't support life to not provide healthcare to those without. I'd call it anti-life.
 
faethor said:
redrumloa said:
faethor said:
I agree! A plan that forces one to pay for private insurance. Where the government helps the poorer by giving them money to again give to private industry. This is a form of fascism.
Sounds more like a first step towards Communism to me.
Italy's fascist system under Mussolini was one of corportism. Where the state funded the private businesses to carry out their agenda. In the case of the Obama plan the state doesn't directly care for health insurance or medical care. Instead they force people to give wealth to corporations.

Mussolini said:
Fascism combats the whole complex system of democratic ideology, and repudiates it, whether in its theoretical premises or in its practical application. Fascism denies that the majority, by the simple fact that it is a majority, can direct human society; it denies that numbers alone can govern by means of a periodical consultation, and it affirms the immutable, beneficial, and fruitful inequality of mankind, which can never be permanently leveled through the mere operation of a mechanical process such as universal suffrage....

The foundation of Fascism is the conception of the State, its character, its duty, and its aim. Fascism conceives of the State as an absolute, in comparison with which all individuals or groups are relative, only to be conceived of in their relation to the State. The conception of the Liberal State is not that of a directing force, guiding the play and development, both material and spiritual, of a collective body, but merely a force limited to the function of recording results: on the other hand, the Fascist State is itself conscious and has itself a will and a personality -- thus it may be called the "ethic" State....

Fascism is another form of state ran collective socialism. Fascist movements were groups whose objective was power and who were anti-democratic. They wanted action, a dictator leader. The fascists idea of "The Nation" was the majority of people were incapable of governing, only the "ruling class" should govern, providing the social services to the majority, who in return gave up their individual freedoms to the state.
 
Red, when talking about Communism, please to the school of communism your are talking about whether Marxist, Leninist, Maoist, Trotskyist etc. Usually you just use a caricature private definition and it's not useful except for straw man purposes. Ignorance however is NOT strength.

Similarly metalman, on Fascism defer to Mussolini's definition as it is foundational. Once again,having your own private definitions of words doesn't allow for useful debate.

Then again, they are not actual "private" definitions as much as they are "jargon" words amongst the right-wing clique you like to identify with (but which couldn't give a crap about you beyond what you can do for them).
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Then again, they are not actual "private" definitions as much as they are "jargon" words amongst the right-wing clique you like to identify with (but which couldn't give a crap about you beyond what you can do for them).

George Orwell: What is Fascism? (1944)

"Why, then, cannot we have a clear and generally accepted definition of it(Fascism)? Alas! we shall not get one"
 
@metalman

I owe you an apology. I wrote in a hurry and didn't notice that your second quote block (that I skipped over) was attributed to Mussolini, i.e. the primary source.

While Fascism is a rule by the elites who then decides who gets what based upon their own whims, Communism proposes that all individuals should get an equal say in running things, the founding principle being "one man, one vote" and that this would lead to an egalitarian government and distribution of wealth. Many states at the time still felt that it was a terrible idea to allow just anyone to vote and precisely because of the consequence that Marx intended.

In more modern times most states have managed to deal with this problem by the use of mass propaganda to either discourage people from voting, or getting them to vote for people who don't really stand for them but for rich backers instead.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Red, when talking about Communism, please to the school of communism your are talking about whether Marxist, Leninist, Maoist, Trotskyist etc. Usually you just use a caricature private definition and it's not useful except for straw man purposes. Ignorance however is NOT strength.

Communism is Communism, I am not a fan of it in any form so I do not typically engage in debate over the finer points, just as you usually lump all Republicans in one group. That said, it goes without saying that Barrack is a Marxist. By his own words and by the words of people around him, he is a Marxist. As Rush used to say decades ago before his brain went to mush from drugs, "words mean things".

I still do not see a single Whyzzat member in the USA defending this POS "Health Care Bill". It is all about a power grab, not health care.
 
> Communism proposes that all individuals should get an equal say in running things

And in practice that has never happened, quite the opposite.
 
redrumloa said:
> Communism proposes that all individuals should get an equal say in running things

And in practice that has never happened, quite the opposite.

Very true, which is why I am of the opinion that we have never had a real communist country.

We've never had a real democracy either, for that matter.
 
[quote="metalman"Why America Hates Universal Health Care[/quote]
I agree with the article. " It’s “free” only in that the government inserts itself as a middleman into the payment system, so that you pay for your health care indirectly in the form of higher taxes to the government which then turns around and gives the money to doctors and hospitals — rather than individuals paying the doctors and hospitals directly"---Adding taxes to pay private industry to cover expenses, fasicism, is indeed a problem. Here we have an industry that takes 30% off the top and adds 0 value to the system. Single payer, as mentioned, fixes this.

Unfortunately their point misses the present system. ..." I would never under normal circumstances condemn anyone for any of the behaviors listed above. That is: Until the bill for your stupidity shows up in my mailbox. Then suddenly, I’m forced to care about what you do, because I’m being forced to pay for the consequences." -- If the person has health insurance this is already in place. There's medicare and the VA system. Again already in place. This bill really doesn't change this at all. I think he forgot to open his shades.
 
faethor said:
metalman said:
I agree with the article. " It’s “free” only in that the government inserts itself as a middleman into the payment system, so that you pay for your health care indirectly in the form of higher taxes to the government which then turns around and gives the money to doctors and hospitals — rather than individuals paying the doctors and hospitals directly"---Adding taxes to pay private industry to cover expenses, fasicism, is indeed a problem. Here we have an industry that takes 30% off the top and adds 0 value to the system. Single payer, as mentioned, fixes this.

Unfortunately their point misses the present system. ..." I would never under normal circumstances condemn anyone for any of the behaviors listed above. That is: Until the bill for your stupidity shows up in my mailbox. Then suddenly, I’m forced to care about what you do, because I’m being forced to pay for the consequences." -- If the person has health insurance this is already in place. There's medicare and the VA system. Again already in place. This bill really doesn't change this at all. I think he forgot to open his shades.

pay up!!

woman seeking 1,000 pounds gets offers for reality show, book deal

mother who is determined to become the world's fattest woman
 
metalman said:
The article's headline is misleading. The author's unwillingness to subsidize other people's risky behaviour essentially applies to any health insurance plan, irregardless of whether it is offered by a single-payer universal system or a privately owned for-profit corporation.

Considering the content, "Why America Hates Health Insurance" would be a much more fitting title, except that very few people would agree with that premise.

I can only assume that the author believes private health insurance plans involve no redistribution of any costs and every insured person has to pay for their own treatments only. Of course, this is completely and utterly false. If you pay for a private health insurance plan, you are in fact subsidizing the treatments of other people of whom some are fat, some are smokers and others might engage in unsafe sexual relations.

If you cannot stand the idea of paying for the treatment of a fat person, then there is usually no other option but to not buy any health insurance plan and pay everything out of pocket. Of course, the problem with this approach is that you will likely get overcharged because you have no bargaining power compared to a large insurance company that buys care services for a large amount of clients, fat or not.

So, whatever amount you save by not "subdidizing" other people's risky behaviour is likely going to be outweighed by the fact that you simply cannot buy services as cheaply as a large insurance company.

I am also puzzled by the author's glowing remarks about Dr. Sunderhaus. He praises him for telling a patient that she is too fat and then complains about oppressive nanny states that suggest citizens what to do. I do not mean to be insulting, but this seems to be rather schizophrenic to me. (Also, you can actually buy a private insurance plan in the UK, which he cites as an example, so you can escape the freedom-crushing tentacles of the NHS if you really want to.)

One thing to consider is that, if there is universal health care coverage in a country, it does not matter whether it is offered via a public single-payer system or a competition-based privatized one, the chances are much higher that people with unhealthy habits will not be punished, but informed by doctors such as Dr. Sunderhaus about better ways to live their lives. And yes, informing patients and making recommendations is actually a very important function that doctors fulfill. Being pointed in the right direction by a doctor early on can most certainly save a lot of health care expenses in the long run, not to mention increase someone's quality of life dramatically. Of course, if you have no health insurance coverage (because of pre-existing conditions, etc.), chances are much, much lower that you will ever talk to someone like Dr. Sunderhaus until your health has already detoriated greatly...
 
metalman said:
We have paid the pricce in higher taxes to cover the $3M. The article indicated these people don't have healthcare so they visit the ER exclusively. In the new plan they'll have healthcare. They won't have to use the ER exclusively. They can go to a Dr's office. The amount using Drs will be much much less than $3M a savings. Estimates I've seen on the difference between ER and Drs is roughly 10%. Do you not consider having to pay $300K a better option?
 
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