Iran declares war on the US

[FluffyMcDeath]

:shocked:
Well, more or less. That was a naughty alarmist headline. Bad Fluffy.

The games continue - like the new push to shut down Iran's nuclear energy program. Iran still sticks to the letter of the law and the Israel ... I mean the US ... still try to get some traction but end up with spin. Now Obama is saying that Iran has been building a secret nuclear facility and must allow inspection. Iram actually TOLD the US about the facility so it's not really such a big secret - it's not on-line yet and I guess they didn't want to tell anyone too soon because it's easier to blow up nuclear facilities when they don't have any nuclear material but since it is now disclosed it could be made operational and all still be OK by the NPT. Oh those Persians.

So Obama and Sarkozy et al try to build some momentum for a hot war (how long have they been trying to get one now? 8 years? Man, they have fallen behind on the program. Makes it harder to go ahead when your still bleeding out in two other theatres and looking for other people to do your dirty work for you).

Meanwhile Iran takes a shot at the US tottering underbelly - the rot that is the US dollar.

This is the same sort of "crime" that Sadam committed before Iraq was invaded and also similar to what got Chavez briefly "overthrown".

 

[Glaucus]

Honestly, I can't say I'm excited about the idea of Iran joining the nuclear club.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Honestly, I can't say I'm excited about the idea of Iran joining the nuclear club.

You don't want them to have nuclear power plants?

 

[Glaucus]

You know that's not what I meant. But the less nuclear reactors on this planet, overall, the better. But really, I don't think Iran is interested in just electricity and I'd be surprised if you believe that. Were they not offered reactors by Russia or the US? Didn't they refuse them because they were of a type of reactor that didn't lend itself to the rapid development of nuclear weapons? I'm hazy on details here, but I remember something along those lines and it's after 5pm on a Friday....

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

But really, I don't think Iran is interested in just electricity and I'd be surprised if you believe that.

It is quite possible that they are not. It would be the smarter move. A weapons program would be an immediate trigger for all sorts of hurt. It is harder to find a weapons program when there isn't one, therefore safer.

Remember that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction nor a program for weapons of mass destruction despite the continuous propaganda in the media. One day when they have had reactors running for a decade or two they may then go the next step, but that is not the debate for today. If we are to be governed by laws then we must also abide by them. Every indication from the findings of the ongoing inspections and from this latest disclosure of a facility (which must be disclosed according to the NPT 6 months before it goes into operation) is all in accordance with the law. Therefore they are allowed to do it and thew west has no standing under the law that it drafted and that Iran signed and that Iran abides by to invade or sanction or any such thing.

If, in a decade or so, used fuel goes missing this is something that the inspectors should catch if they are competent. The whole "Iran must be stopped" is a ruse and it is exactly the same ruse used against Iraq. The lesson that has been learned from Iraq is that when Iraq complied with every demand it was nonetheless attacked.

Meanwhile countries like Saudi Arabia are looking to get nuclear weapons technology from Pakistan and that doesn't seem to bother people too much even though the US was attacked by Saudis on 11 Sept, 2001.

Meanwhile Israel has 200 to 300 nukes and many of them are targeted at western cities and the Israelis ARE bona fide crazy. It is their strategic position that they are a mad dog that cannot be messed with without getting a disproportionate response. No inspection for them though.

In all I think it is highly likely that they are merely building power stations for now. They don't want to make it easy for the US to start a war on them so they won't give easy triggers. Right now they are playing a waiting game, playing it straight and by doing so undermining the US. Also by changing their reserves they are doing the same thing, and by dealing with Russia and China too. They are probably thinking out to a hundred year or so plan and are in no great rush. This is an old civilization and they don't rush about shouting the way the infantile US does. They are happy to out wait it.

However, in the ultimate far future there may come a time, after the US has borked itself, they will acquire nuclear weapons. If they do then our worst fears will be realized. We will have to pay a fair price for their oil instead of stealing it.

 

[Glaucus]

This is an old civilization and they don't rush about shouting the way the infantile US does.

First, don't underestimate an old civilization's desire to relive it's former glories. Second, running around shouting that the holocaust was a fabrication seems rather infantile to me (not to mention inviting KKK leaders to your country as honored intellectuals is beyond laughable). Third, they may have a right to nuclear power, but everyone else has the right to defend themselves. Yes, the US shot itself in the foot with a cannon when they invaded Iraq and with a long list of repercussions, one of them being that they now have a much harder time dealing with real threats since they squandered their credibility on the fake ones. Invading Iraq was the pinnacle of stupidity, but allowing Iran to develop the bomb is not much smarter. Unfortunately, the US will probably make that mistake too.

 

[faethor]

This is an old civilization and they don't rush about shouting the way the infantile US does.

First, don't underestimate an old civilization's desire to relive it's former glories.

You mean like the UK super power of the 19th century riding on the coattails of the USA superpower of the 20th century? We have to wonder how they'll deal with the likely outcome of China superpower of the 21st century.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

This is an old civilization and they don't rush about shouting the way the infantile US does.

First, don't underestimate an old civilization's desire to relive it's former glories.

Not doing that. Just saying the Mullahs play a long game. They have more patience then the brash Americans.

Second, running around shouting that the holocaust was a fabrication seems rather infantile to me (not to mention inviting KKK leaders to your country as honored intellectuals is beyond laughable).

(and rabbis ... don't forget the rabbis).

Also, despite saying the "Holocaust" (yes, uppercase H) is a hoax is the medias version of what he says. What he says is that the Holocaust is used as a pretext to take Palestinian land and why do the Palestinians have to pay for something the Germans did? The fact that the Holocaust is the modern justification for the founding of the state of Israel, even mentioning that the facts of the story be investigated is an existential threat to the state of Israel so obviously the words are not without danger to the state of Israel but on the other hand, open investigation surely couldn't hurt their claims, could it.

Of course, in many countries it is illegal to even ask the questions. This is the essence of blasphemy laws which are enacted to legislate fact where reality cannot be relied upon to provide the desired outcome.

Third, they may have a right to nuclear power, but everyone else has the right to defend themselves.

Including Iran. They also have the right to defend themselves.

but allowing Iran to develop the bomb is not much smarter.

[/quote]
The Mullahs are not suicidal. There is no more danger in them having the bomb than in Russia or the US having the bomb. Apparently the theocratically racist and homicidal state of Israel can have 200 or more nukes and no-one cares to mention them, let alone ask if it's a good idea.

Using nukes remains suicidal. If Iran had one it could not use it. All it would do is make it riskier to attack them. For now they are happy to stay conventional. Doubtless they will keep the options open because they would be stupid not to but until then they will fill the country with inspectors and try to make sure that each clean report is made as noisily as possible.

 

[Glaucus]

Not doing that. Just saying the Mullahs play a long game. They have more patience then the brash Americans.

So how does test firing long range strategic missiles (and by strategic I mean capable of carrying nuclear payloads) in the same week they announce expansions to their nuclear program fit in with the Mullahs political chess game? I'd say that in real politic speak it translates to: Go ahead, make my day. But good thing they're not brash about it.

Also, despite saying the "Holocaust" (yes, uppercase H) is a hoax is the medias version of what he says. What he says is that the Holocaust is used as a pretext to take Palestinian land and why do the Palestinians have to pay for something the Germans did? The fact that the Holocaust is the modern justification for the founding of the state of Israel, even mentioning that the facts of the story be investigated is an existential threat to the state of Israel so obviously the words are not without danger to the state of Israel but on the other hand, open investigation surely couldn't hurt their claims, could it.

Except that any real historian would tell you it has nothing to do with the Germans or WW2. Much of today's problems in the Middle East are rooted in the former British Empire and how they divided up the land and how they abandoned it. Because of that the Middle East remains unstable, and even if Israel were to sink into the Mediterranean, the region would continue to be "interesting".

[quote:d9qr5xba]Third, they may have a right to nuclear power, but everyone else has the right to defend themselves.

Including Iran. They also have the right to defend themselves.[/quote:d9qr5xba]That is of course true, but on that premise a pre-emptive attack against Iran is justifiable. That's not what I'm advocating at all, but self defense trumps everything else as far as I'm concerned and if you see your enemies preparing to attack you, you're a fool if you just sit there. Of course, Iran feels threatened by the weapons pointed at it and I can understand why Iran would want to develop the bomb. And like Bush who isolated himself and refused to negotiate, so is Iran today. Iran doesn't need to be Israel's enemy, they chose it, much like how Hitler decided to use the Jews as a convinient scapegoat for the nations problems. Iran has no real issue with Israel, Palestinians are Sunni Arabs, not Shi'te Persians. Iran didn't even take part in the Arab-Israeli war, so what's the beef?

[quote:d9qr5xba]but allowing Iran to develop the bomb is not much smarter.

The Mullahs are not suicidal. There is no more danger in them having the bomb than in Russia or the US having the bomb.[/quote:d9qr5xba]Except that you're forgetting the close calls during the cold war. All it takes is one little mistake, one little computer glitch, for one to mistakenly think their nation is under attack and to order a retaliation attack. And also remember that with the US and Russia they had some time to think things through and call back the bombers. When you're right next door, the thinking time is much shorter. Does the world need another Pakistan/India or Korea scenario?

Apparently the theocratically racist and homicidal state of Israel can have 200 or more nukes and no-one cares to mention them, let alone ask if it's a good idea.

Overall, my view is that there are no good guys in the Middle East and one nation with nuclear weapons is one nation too many. Just because I'm critical of Iran doesn't mean I'm forgiving of Israel. It's sorta like being a Maple Leafs fan AND a Habs fan. I know some think it's crazy, but it happens.

Using nukes remains suicidal. If Iran had one it could not use it. All it would do is make it riskier to attack them. For now they are happy to stay conventional. Doubtless they will keep the options open because they would be stupid not to but until then they will fill the country with inspectors and try to make sure that each clean report is made as noisily as possible.

I hope so, but we are talking about theologians here. I never thought you'd take the side of a religious extremist.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Not doing that. Just saying the Mullahs play a long game. They have more patience then the brash Americans.

So how does test firing long range strategic missiles (and by strategic I mean capable of carrying nuclear payloads) in the same week they announce expansions to their nuclear program fit in with the Mullahs political chess game?

It means the same thing as it meant the last time they were firing off missiles. Surely you've seen cats do this.

Tel Aviv is still pushing for an attack and the US is going along with this. Tehran is under threat and is trying to make itself look big. This is normal posturing when a nation is threatened with attack as Iran is. Iran itself is not seeking to attack anyone. It knows it cannot win, but it wants Israel to know that there are no free shots.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

And like Bush who isolated himself and refused to negotiate, so is Iran today.

Bush chose not to negotiate with anyone he wanted to attack but blamed the intended targets for not trying diplomacy. Barack Obama does precisely the same. Iran repeatedly tries engagement, in fact they are quite engaged with other parts of the world, but the US rebuffs them. Rule number one, don't have a civilized conversation with someone you intend to punch - you might find it more difficult to hit them afterwards.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

I never thought you'd take the side of a religious extremist.

By which I'm sure you mean the US and Israel (both of which have become religiously extreme nations especially among their military).

I never thought you would be blinded to a repeat of the exact same game plan simply because it is now used against a theocracy where it was previously used against a secular state.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

The fact that the Holocaust is the modern justification for the founding of the state of Israel, even mentioning that the facts of the story be investigated is an existential threat to the state of Israel so obviously the words are not without danger to the state of Israel but on the other hand, open investigation surely couldn't hurt their claims, could it.

Except that any real historian would tell you it has nothing to do with the Germans or WW2. Much of today's problems in the Middle East are rooted in the former British Empire and how they divided up the land and how they abandoned it.

"Real" historians agree with each other about as often as "real" economists. Each side has their own.

That being said though, yes Britain has a great deal of responsibility here. After all, they had promised Palestine to the zionists even before World War I had ended (1917) - handing over a protectorate to a bunch of blood thirsty zealots who then went on a murderous rampage clearing the land of its inhabitants - that was a bit of a betrayal.

As to how interesting the region would be without constant interference from outside trying to stoke the internal divisions - we don't know. Certainly it has sustained several large and lengthy empires over time so it's not like they are incapable of cohesively governing large regions themselves. If they were allowed to, though, it would make it harder to screw them for their resources. That they remain divided is partly due to a campaign of "divide and conquer".