Kinect

[faethor]

Liking technology, the 360, and the wife saying she actually wanted it; I got the Kinect last night. Placement was a bit tricky. Our room is about 10' wide. One needs 6-8' of space. The couch is roughly 2' off the back wall and the TV about 2' off the front wall. We found a place that's a bit of an angle but it'll work.

Games -- have a different interface and a slighly different sensitivity. I think over time these two will work themselves out. The free game is rather lame. Bad idea IMO as this is often the first game users will try. Demos of Your Fitness and Dance Central are fun.

Workout? Adventures not so much. Your Fitness not bad. Dance Central -- definitely.

Interface changes -- are nice. My 4 year old could use the controller fairly well. He took right to not using the controler and waving his arm. He really likes speech features. I swear I heard 'Xbox eject' & 'Xbox closed' for a straight 1/2 hour.

Is is a game changer? (pun intended) I'd say no. Though if Microsoft can double it's performance and accuracy I think the Xbox 720 will ship with this and be a huge hit.

 

[Glaucus]

Over at Ars they pretty much trashed the Kinect, although very nicely. They said the technology is cool for what it is, but limited to only certain types of games. They said the Sony Move is far more accurate - the ping pong game can accurately detect wrist rotation which the Kinect simply can't and with the built in "rumble" feature provides tactile feedback when you "hit" the ball. They say that is a far more enjoyable experience then what the Kinect provides. More importantly for me, the Move is capable of a much wider range of games, including first person shooters (and they say Little Big Planet 2 will support the Move, which should be pretty cool especially for level creation). And oh yeah, I have no desire to rearrange my living room or to stand while playing games. I'd imagine the Kinect will be better at dance games, but the PS3 always had the Eye which was good enough for that style of game. In the end they recommended NOT to buy the Kinect, but they do like the Move. They predict that Microsoft will eventually release a controller similar to the Move to work along with the Kinect.

Buy a house, clean your floor, move your butt: Ars reviews Kinect

 

[faethor]

Over at Ars they pretty much trashed the Kinect, although very nicely. They said the technology is cool for what it is, but limited to only certain types of games. They said the Sony Move is far more accurate - the ping pong game can accurately detect wrist rotation which the Kinect simply can't and with the built in "rumble" feature provides tactile feedback when you "hit" the ball.

But wait didn't Sony say rumble was last gen? The Kinect doesn't provide tactile feedback. Though a rumble to indicate your fist hit an opponent isn't quite right either. And yes I think Kinect with more accuracy would be appealing. So, next gen with the 3rd Xbox perhaps.

Having a friend with a Move and a WiiMotion+ I played them back to back. IMO not much difference in the controller. The difference is is the Move and Wii are a single point that's detected. If you want a more accurate dance, fighting or exercise they will fail as they neglect detecting the rest of your body.

More importantly for me, the Move is capable of a much wider range of games, including first person shooters

Microsoft did say that games which are Kinect and controller both controlable would come in the future. So those first person shooters could use the Kinect for head tracking and voice controls. Though none are available at this time. Killzone3 when shown with the Move had a dual list of players for head to head. One list was for the standard controller and the other for the Move. I think they'll fix that from the Beta as splitting the base with lag wouldn't be good. I hope they don't have to introduce lag for the standard controller in KZ3 so the speeds match.

They predict that Microsoft will eventually release a controller similar to the Move to work along with the Kinect.

Why bother? Use the Kinect + 360 controller.

In the end the question isn't as much for the current owners of the consoles. Microsoft is trying to sell more 360s not sell more Kinects. It's a play for the casual gamers to get into the console. I think it could work well as it's different than the Wii which most own. Though the Wii HD, aka PS3 Move, might be a winner. My guess is Microsoft remains above Sony in the US and a close player in Europe while continuing to lose Japan.

 

[Glaucus]

Ultimately it's gonna be games that decide this. So far the PS3 Move actually has some big name games listed and scheduled to come out soon (LBP2, KZ3 and SOCOM4). I think the Kinect will own the dance games market, but the PS3 will likely appeal more to traditional hard core gamers. It's a better Wii, and I don't see a problem with that.

 

[faethor]

Buy a house, clean your floor, move your butt: Ars reviews Kinect

Did you see the recent article? Building the future They seem to be along the lines I am. This stuff is cool and showing promise. And if it works we have bigger changes ahead.

Really, why not start using all this computing power? We have desktops that word process and run excel. Out of my network of 700+ PCs I bet the GIS and CAD guys are the only ones that significantly push their machines. Time to think about natural human interfaces. Along with those computers that recognize you by voice and facial features such as Star Trek or Minority Report.

 

[Glaucus]

Well, facial recognition has been around for a number of years, as has voice recognition. I'm surprised it's not used more, but at the same time, not sure how I'd want it used more. I wonder how well the Kinect handles accents, something that has held back voice recognition for some time now.

Btw, it'll be interesting to see if anyone hacks the kinect to work on a PC, although I'd imagine they'd probably need to rip out a lot of code from the 360 itself as the brunt of the work is probably done in software.

There's also a backlash against this new tech. Some gamers want buttons, simple as that, and they're not interested in what new game types this tech brings: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2010/11/hope-for-a-future-without-buttons-we-must-fight.ars

They bash the Move there as well, but I think the Move will do well in some games. In particular the Move will make real time strategy games playable on a console. I hope THQ jumps on that bandwagon.

EDIT: Btw, last night I downloaded the Alien Breed: Impact demo (by some older company called Team17, ever hear of them? :wink for the PS3. Have they released that for the 360? For $15 I'm considering it.

 

[faethor]

Well, facial recognition has been around for a number of years, as has voice recognition. I'm surprised it's not used more, but at the same time, not sure how I'd want it used more.

Sure it has. And it's been very expensive, or out of the reach of the general consumer. Voice recognition often has to be trained by the sender. It's nice to have it work immediately. Though to be fair it's not the complete plethora of words.

I wonder how well the Kinect handles accents, something that has held back voice recognition for some time now.

I'm sure some are better than others. The 360 doesn't respond to y'all so those Alabamaians might have some trouble. Afterall Microsoft is a Yankee company.

Btw, it'll be interesting to see if anyone hacks the kinect to work on a PC, although I'd imagine they'd probably need to rip out a lot of code from the 360 itself as the brunt of the work is probably done in software.

I'm sure it'll come. Most importantly, and hopefully, are the rumors from that'll it be baked into Windows 8.

There's also a backlash against this new tech.

People are people. There's always backlash against new tech from someone. Certainly gamers want buttons. Alas, I recall complaints when the industry moved from the Atari 1 button to the NES 2 button controller.

They bash the Move there as well, but I think the Move will do well in some games. In particular the Move will make real time strategy games playable on a console. I hope THQ jumps on that bandwagon.

RTS hasn't caught on, on the consoles yet. I don't know why the Move should be any better at this than say the WiiMotion+?

Btw, last night I downloaded the Alien Breed: Impact demo (by some older company called Team17, ever hear of them? :wink for the PS3. Have they released that for the 360? For $15 I'm considering it.

Alien Breed Evolution game for the 360 came out last year. Alien Breed: Impact is the PS3 version. I'd think with another year+ of development they added more stuff.

 

[Glaucus]

Well, facial recognition has been around for a number of years, as has voice recognition. I'm surprised it's not used more, but at the same time, not sure how I'd want it used more.

Sure it has. And it's been very expensive, or out of the reach of the general consumer.

But that's changing very quickly. Google's Picassa has built in facial recognition and it's open source (and yes free for everyone to download). And I might add the face recognition is freakishly accurate. But also Logitech has shipped web cameras that recognize the face, as does the PlayStation Eye. The price tag on these technologies is somewhere between $40 and $100 for consumer products. The thing is, aside from the cool factor, it's just not that necessary. I mean, we could make your toaster recognize your face and adjust the toasting duration to your favorite level, but do we really need that? My $80 toaster is already pretty high tech with it's digital count down display and I admit it is just a gimmick that I probably could have done without (but damn it looks cool).

Voice recognition often has to be trained by the sender. It's nice to have it work immediately. Though to be fair it's not the complete plethora of words.

Some Android phones (Nexus One?) have a feature where you can text someone by dictating into your phone. It converts your speech into an SMS and sends it. That's actually a more advanced example of speech recognition then the Kinect.

I'm sure it'll come. Most importantly, and hopefully, are the rumors from that'll it be baked into Windows 8.

That would be nice. It should be in Windows Phone 7 right now though (well, the voice recognition at least).

People are people. There's always backlash against new tech from someone. Certainly gamers want buttons. Alas, I recall complaints when the industry moved from the Atari 1 button to the NES 2 button controller.

True, but the game market is a lot bigger and a lot more mature these days. Also, MS invested a ton of cash into this and it's not likely to get a lot back from the hardware sales. In otherwords, even if the Kinect sells like hotcakes this Christmas, if the games don't come it'll end up being a massive loss for MS. And that's where people think MS will have a problem. Everyone says the tech is cool, but everyone is still scratching their heads about the games.

RTS hasn't caught on, on the consoles yet. I don't know why the Move should be any better at this than say the WiiMotion+?

The Move itself is probably not gonna be better at RTS then the WiiMotion+. However, the PS3 will be FAR better at RTS then the Wii due to 1) raw horse power and 2) high definition. RTS looks like crap on SD.

Alien Breed Evolution game for the 360 came out last year.

Did you give it a try?

 

[faethor]

I mean, we could make your toaster recognize your face and adjust the toasting duration to your favorite level, but do we really need that?

I think of Star Trek and all that's done due to individual recognition. Objects need to add intelligence that'll autodetect the users in the area and act accordingly. I think think of many home and automotive automation uses for that.

Some Android phones (Nexus One?) have a feature where you can text someone by dictating into your phone. It converts your speech into an SMS and sends it. That's actually a more advanced example of speech recognition then the Kinect.

The next step is the Kinect area where the device takes actions due to the voice command.

That would be nice. It should be in Windows Phone 7 right now though (well, the voice recognition at least).

WP7 has the Android like Voice to text technology.

True, but the game market is a lot bigger and a lot more mature these days.

Which means diverse models should be more sustainable.

Also, MS invested a ton of cash into this and it's not likely to get a lot back from the hardware sales.

IMO this is because the Kinect is the basis for this tech for more diverse uses in the future. And of course it's far, far less than the billions Sony invested in the PS3, which is also unlikely to get payback from hardware sales. The $5Billion+ Sony investment is much larger % of corporate money than Microsoft's investment in the Kinect.

The Move itself is probably not gonna be better at RTS then the WiiMotion+. However, the PS3 will be FAR better at RTS then the Wii due to 1) raw horse power and 2) high definition. RTS looks like crap on SD.

I agree that RTS is better on HD. But, how many of those RTS games did we play on our SD Amiga that were fun!

And no I haven't tried Alien Breed.

 

[faethor]

In the first 10 days of US sales, and 4 days of European sales, Microsoft sold over 1M Kinect devices. They have upped their sales prediction for 2010 to be 5M.

 

[Glaucus]

Apparently the kinect has already been hacked and you can use parts of it on your PC. Apparently MS is kinda pissed off about that, but they shouldn't be surprised.

As for kinect sales, like I said before, it's all gonna come down to the games and so far I don't see anything worth buying.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Apparently the kinect has already been hacked

he he. Actually, that's pretty cool.

[youtube:3q3po7y9]7QrnwoO1-8A[/youtube:3q3po7y9]

[youtube:3q3po7y9]ho6Yhz21BJI[/youtube:3q3po7y9]

 

[faethor]

[youtube:2bhzslpk]dRPEns8MS2o[/youtube:2bhzslpk]
Kinect 3D vision for robots..

Now I must build a Dalek suit for it.

 

[Glaucus]

Kinect 3D vision for robots.

Yep, now all someone needs to do is strap some explosives to it and blow someone up. Then sales will really pick up! :mrgreen:

 

[faethor]

Microsoft reverses course and loves it some open source...

A tweet by the "Science Friday" staff read "(Xbox director of incubation) Alex Kipman says Kinect interface was left unprotected 'by design.' [And Microsoft's] Shannon Loftis says she's 'inspired' by community finding new uses."

 

[faethor]

Javascript + Kinect allows you to browse the web like Minority Report, or perhaps it's the Force.

 

[Glaucus]

I lifted the following from a user comment in an ars article about the Kinect:

“The machine was rather difficult to operate. For years radios had been operated by means of pressing buttons and turning dials; then as the technology became more sophisticated the controls were made touch-sensitive - you merely had to brush the panels with your fingers; now all you had to do was wave your hand in the general direction of the components and hope. It saved a lot of muscular expenditure of course, but meant that you had to sit infuriatingly still if you wanted to keep listening to the same programme.”

-- Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, ch. 12

 

[Glaucus]

Javascript + Kinect allows you to browse the web like Minority Report, or perhaps it's the Force.

Geek response: Way cool.
Practical response: Please, please, please, PLEASE, don't take my mouse away!!!! (also, see prior post)