Meanwhile in Europe

"Experts say that as far as local government is concerned the work carried out by 3,000 Greek employees can be done by 1,000 Germans," Fuchtel said. On Thursday, he said his remarks had been misinterpreted.
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The problem is he's absolutely correct. The fact is, it could also be carried out by 1000 Greeks, all you'd need to do is fire the 2000 that sit around and do absolutely nothing. My only complaint is that the Greek government doesn't really get it. They let Germany take the blame when really they need to take ownership and start bringing in reforms on their own initiative without waiting for foreigners to tell them what should be plainly obvious.
 
Glaucus said:
The problem is he's absolutely correct. The fact is, it could also be carried out by 1000 Greeks, all you'd need to do is fire the 2000 that sit around and do absolutely nothing.
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The other problem is who 9is the economy supposed to serve, the people or the "owners". What will the 2000 left over Greeks do? All 3000 could be replaced with machines, and then what? The economy as it is run right now is a mess. Our current technology should allow everyone to be provided for (food, clothing, etc) AND have them do something at least semi useful for 4 or so hours a day. Instead we get 1000 people to do the work of 3000 people and put 2000 people to work doing what? Serving coffee? We don't need that many coffee servers. We don't need that much of anything. Instead of getting less people working we should be having more people working - then they'll have money and they can buy the work of others.

Or we just forget about being egalitarian and enlightened and just cull the excess labour.
 
Well, I can see now why that German dude came across as an asshole. I guess you needed to go to Greece to experience it first hand. Not sure how it is today with all the cuts and austerity, I imagine some people are doing their best to at least look busy to keep their jobs, but back before this happened many in the labor force were notorious for doing nothing. It would have been unusual to walk into a government office to get something like a passport and not see a huge line of people waiting in a room with three or four wickets, only one of which was staffed by someone who made it rather obvious they had other places they'd rather be. And the other wickets were staffed as well, except that staff was sitting around drinking (not serving) a coffee and puffing away on a cigarette and doing their best to just not give a {bleep}. The one working most likely lost a bet or it was just his/her turn, either way, the entire department was doing the absolute minimum required so that one could say work was being done. The problem is that many Germans travel to Greece and they see this all the time with their own eyes, so it's really hard to convince them that it's not like that. It is, and most Greeks know this. It's also why some of the hardest working Greeks left Greece, because they knew that when that kind of work ethic is rampant, there is no future in a country like that.

So there's really two reason the Greek government needs to fire people. The first of course is because most of them don't do anything at all except collect a pay cheque. The other is to scare the shit of the rest so that they actually do something. I think it's fair to expect work in return for cash.

But yes, I do acknowledge that austerity is not good for the economy either. It's a shame that all this is happening at once. The reality is it should have happened decades ago. The problem is that every time a government has tried to take a step in this direction the unions would turn the streets into a battle ground. And at elections all politicians would promise to pave the streets with gold. It's a total mess and it's now come to the point where perhaps the only thing that can save them is a shock to the old system and the birth of a new one. The sad thing is that I'm not convinced the old one is dead and I don't see a new one emerging. Greece has a lot lower to slide.
 
The main problem isn't austerity or a lack thereof, it's the complete absence of a solid recovery plan.
Merkel's plan of subsidizing the amortisation of old second hand cars to stimulate the car industry was the only plan that made some sense.
Beating on the austerity drum is only a distraction of the complete lack of any governmental talent whatsoever. And that's what 'we' want.
Our society (throughout Europe) fears people with skills as they may unmask those who have none, which is the majority.
 
Speelgoedmannetje said:
Merkel's plan of subsidizing the amortisation of old second hand cars to stimulate the car industry was the only plan that made some sense.
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The only plan that makes any sense is to nationalize the central banks and make bond holders and other paper holders take big haircuts on debts that can never be paid off. Continuing to pretend that these "obligations" have any validity is the problem. Many debts were sophisticated financial cons that were perpetrated on unsophisticated or outright bought governments.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
The only plan that makes any sense is to nationalize the central banks and make bond holders and other paper holders take big haircuts on debts that can never be paid off. Continuing to pretend that these "obligations" have any validity is the problem. Many debts were sophisticated financial cons that were perpetrated on unsophisticated or outright bought governments.
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I know and I heartily agree.
I know nationalizing banks must happen, but, this will take a huge organisational and jurisdictional effort, with huge risks, especially considering the current situation.
Especially nationalizing the insurances holds a very high jurisdictional risk, as it's their aim to fully utilize the law as part of the profit maximization (with avoiding to pay claims)
Such things must happen when we can take those risks.

That's why I said some sense.
 
And how does nationalizing the banks fix the problem in Greece where workers get paid for doing nothing? How will that solve the problem with "protected professions" or when the vast majority of workers retire before the age of 60 or that Greece spends more on national defense per GDP than any other UN nation or that taxes aren't paid and that those who do pay, pay twice when they need to see a doctor who will only treat them if they slip him/her a "fakilaki" containing only cash? There's no economic system that can function if the system is corrupt to the core. First fix the corruption then worry about the system.
 
Glaucus said:
And how does nationalizing the banks fix the problem in Greece where workers get paid for doing nothing? How will that solve the problem with "protected professions" or when the vast majority of workers retire before the age of 60 or that Greece spends more on national defense per GDP than any other UN nation or that taxes aren't paid and that those who do pay, pay twice when they need to see a doctor who will only treat them if they slip him/her a "fakilaki" containing only cash? There's no economic system that can function if the system is corrupt to the core. First fix the corruption then worry about the system.
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It gives the control back to the Greeks, so if they're so lazy as you say, there aren't any undemocratic forces who are pulling the strings, and therefore, austerity will actually have positive effect
 
Glaucus said:
First fix the corruption then worry about the system.
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Letting foreign banks own your entire country is not a fix - it is the end. Corruption, in and of itself, is not necessarily fatal to an economy, in fact it can lend an economy some resilience - but it is a problem for the "owners".
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Letting foreign banks own your entire country is not a fix - it is the end. Corruption, in and of itself, is not necessarily fatal to an economy, in fact it can lend an economy some resilience - but it is a problem for the "owners".
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Well, yes, Greece's debt is the problem. And it racked up a huge debt because politicians were buying votes. If they weren't corrupt they wouldn't have bought things they can't afford in the first place. Certain amounts of corruption are tolerable, and a society with zero corruption is unrealistic, but extreme corruption can also quickly deep six a nation's economy. Some think telling a "white" lie is permissible, or that some fibs are harmless, but there's no way anyone could extrapolate that to the point where they could say pathological liars are beneficial. Greece is well past the point of white lies and are no longer trusted by anyone, including themselves.
 
Glaucus said:
Well, yes, Greece's debt is the problem.
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And what is debt and how did Greece become indebted and where does money come from and why is should debt be repaid when it didn't cost the lender anything? The problem in Greece is the same as here - everybody runs around swapping debts as if it were the same as spending money. Country's have been taken in and screwed over in the same way that people have partly because some people in the financial system are innately predatory and partly because the system requires predation to survive as obligations grow exponentially.

But basically here is how the thing works. Use whatever names you like.

Cute, but naive Greece is walking down the street in her short skirt. Germany pulls alongside her on his Harley - tells her how pretty she is, offers her some weed and a ride. Soon she's getting free weed all the time and then Germany starts giving her harder stuff, more addictive stuff. One day when Greece is jonesing for a fix, Germany decides it's time for the end game. He tells her that she's been taking advantage of his good graces and what does she think, all that crack and meth was free and that she owes him big time and she better get her sweet ass down on the street corner and sell herself or he's just going to sell her to some pimp. That is what is going on. Greece is afraid of Germany because he's so big and mean but Greece needs to realize that the "debt" is bullshit.

Unfortunately Greece (or the bought out representatives of Greece) already converted the total bullshit debt into new more enforceable debt and that makes their situation much more difficult. What could once have been dealt with more easily now looks like it will require at least the dissolution of Greece and the establishment of a new country with a new currency - and risk war with Europe and the UK. Certain big interests are eager to get their hands on what they rightfully tricked Greece out of.
 
That's actually kinda funny because the left wing Syriza party that was campaigning to tell Germany that Greece would make no more austerity cuts did so on the belief, one that many Greeks share, that the Germans would be so scared of Greece defaulting they would end up giving them free money.

Your little story doesn't really make much sense to me. All banks want to make money from their customers, but killing off their customers one by one doesn't really make sense. Greece can always default if it so chooses and if things don't look like they're going to get better most certainly will. And the threat of war hasn't been much of a threat to Greeks over the centuries.

But even if we were to say your story makes some sense, my argument still stands that the Greek government did the same thing to it's own people. Personally, I think if you were to reverse the debt, and gave Greece a 1 trillion dollar surplus, with their current system they'd be in the same predicament within ten years. They'll just use that cash to line pockets and buy votes, except now with even bigger lump sums.
 
Glaucus said:
That's actually kinda funny because the left wing Syriza party that was campaigning to tell Germany that Greece would make no more austerity cuts did so on the belief, one that many Greeks share, that the Germans would be so scared of Greece defaulting they would end up giving them free money.
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Defaulting is kinda like free money. Forgiveness of "debt" is like getting the money to pay it - only without someone having to print the money first. However, the debt was made out of nothing so it all balances out.

All banks want to make money from their customers, but killing off their customers one by one doesn't really make sense. Greece can always default if it so chooses and if things don't look like they're going to get better most certainly will. And the threat of war hasn't been much of a threat to Greeks over the centuries.
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What is money? Banks make debt out of nothing - someone fails to pay the debt then the bank gets their stuff. Either money from the debtor with which to buy his stuff from him or just his stuff without the waiting. Money is just a means to an end. Stuff and control of stuff is the real goal because stuff and the control of stuff is what IS real. Wealth and power is all about finding a way to get other people to look after you and give you nice stuff. Banks use debt to get stuff.

If you look at how the US has used the technique in South America to extract wealth, the same thing goes on around the world. You cajole or bribe governments into borrowing a lot of money at interest, write them reports about how great things are going to be because of the infrastructure improvements or whatever, then get US companies to do the work so the money comes straight home, and then screw them for the principle and the interest and it's far too late once they find out how screwed they are. (If they don't play along then revolutions and/or assassinations happen). Making a bad loan isn't necessarily bad business for a bank. It would be for you and me because we would lose the money we put up, but a bank doesn't put up any money - they just create two accounts that balance out to $0 - the positive advance a negative loan balance owing. You and I can't do that but banks are chartered to do exactly that. That way they can turn moving numbers around into control over real assets.

Personally, I think if you were to reverse the debt, and gave Greece a 1 trillion dollar surplus, with their current system they'd be in the same predicament within ten years. They'll just use that cash to line pockets and buy votes, except now with even bigger lump sums.
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It would depend on their money system. But what is really wrong with not working much. Why are you so obsessed with working a lot. Is that what human beings are for? Decades ago we passed the point where we had to work so hard to have a comfortable life. We have so many machines working for us now and so much cheap energy running things for us that we used to use slave labour for, we really don't need to be working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. Oddly, though, in North America we are working longer than we used to. Instead of one person in the family working we have two. Instead of working 40 hours a week we work 50, 60 or more. Why? Because the way we allocate resources is perverse - it's designed to keep you slaving away to pay debt - they give you the stuff up front then crack the whip on you making you pay back twice, three times, sometimes ten times more than the price by charging interest and dragging the amortization out with low monthly payments. It's all possible because 95% of our money is actually debt, not real money.
 
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