Nigel Farage On Greece

Honestly I think most Greeks are upset that little has been done to clean up corruption - and not just government corruption. I'm not convinced most Greeks wish to exit the Euro. I think they want an election.
 
the_leander said:
Nigel Farage... Oh good gods.
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But why do you say that? Personally I find him enormously entertaining, but he is also quite often correct. He makes an important observation here - Greece is not currently a democracy, it is a vassal state currently under rule by the banks' receiver. That is a very important issue and rolling your eyes at Farage is like living in a house full of in manure and rolling your eyes at people who complain about the smell. The problem isn't the people who talk about the problem.
 
Glaucus said:
I think they want an election.
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Well tough luck then. The banks don't want them to have an election. By the way - isn't that more or less what Farage just said there? The Greeks don't want to be bound by the decisions of an unelected government.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
But why do you say that?
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Because the guy is a fuckwit of the highest order, entertaining yes. Correct, no.

FluffyMcDeath said:
He makes an important observation here - Greece is not currently a democracy, it is a vassal state currently under rule by the banks' receiver. That is a very important issue and rolling your eyes at Farage is like living in a house full of in manure and rolling your eyes at people who complain about the smell. The problem isn't the people who talk about the problem.
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Even broken clocks can be right once in a while, that doesn't make him any less questionable as a source for anything than it does the Daily Mail.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Well tough luck then. The banks don't want them to have an election. By the way - isn't that more or less what Farage just said there? The Greeks don't want to be bound by the decisions of an unelected government.
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Only the acting PM is unelected, and he's temporary. I believe elections are scheduled for sometime real soon actually: Greek Legislative Elections 2012.
Parliamentary elections are scheduled to be held in Greece in April 2012.[1] They were originally scheduled to be held in 2013 in accordance with the constitution; however, due to an agreement to form a coalition government in November 2011 in order to ratify and implement the decisions agreed to with other Eurozone countries and the IMF on 26 October, one of the conditions was to hold an early election.
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Papademos is not expected to run. The only real question I have is who will be the leader of PASOK?
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Will that government be allowed to undo anything that has been done by the current one?
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Of course it can. But I would imagine that would be part of the election. I mean, the election would in fact be a referendum. The choices will be clear, either stay with the EU/Eurozone/Troika or default and go on their own. Of course, that's assuming the parties will actually differ on that issue but I expect that some of the smaller parties might run on a "default" platform. I don't see either PASOK or New Democracy advocating a default. But at the same time, I don't see PASOK or ND getting tons of votes either, so it'll be interesting.
 
Glaucus said:
Of course it can.
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Really? They will be allowed to re-nationalize things which get privatized? They'll be allowed to abrogate the "bailout" and renegotiate it?
The choices will be clear, either stay with the EU/Eurozone/Troika or default and go on their own.
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The choice isn't about whether to default or not. The choice is to default while still an independent nation and keep your state property, or default as part of Europe and lose all sovereignty to Brussels. The choice is to be their own country or a "have-not" province of Europe, except without the transfer payments.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
I expect a bit more than mere ad hominem.
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Hyperbole is his primary weapon and uses it to such extremes (remember the vid featuring him back in the mid 90s where he claimed 70% of laws were being made by brussels?) that it becomes difficult to take him any more seriously than I do Red when it comes to either abortion or inoculations.

The man is a joke over here. He might have more points that are as valid as he is with the Greek debt, but we'll never know because no sane human (or anyone wishing to remain such) would be prepared to trawl through his stuff to get to them.

So yes, the man is a fuckwit, on many levels, not the least of which is the fact that his choice to be over the top on issues regarding Europe undermine anything he has to say and puts off the vast majority of the voting public for anything other than the tokenism that is the EU parliament.

And to be clear, I have been and remain a Euro-skeptic.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
The choice isn't about whether to default or not. The choice is to default while still an independent nation and keep your state property, or default as part of Europe and lose all sovereignty to Brussels. The choice is to be their own country or a "have-not" province of Europe, except without the transfer payments.
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The loss of sovereignty would not be permanent. Other European countries do not seek to rule Greece because they want to (Who would, given the situation in Greece?) but because the governing politicians in Greece have proven over and over again to be incapable of fixing the country, and there is no other way to make taxpayers in other countries accept that they have to pay another 130 billion EUR to Greece unless the EU will exercise a much better oversight on how the money will be spent than it has in the past.

The real question is whether the temporary bailout is likely to work or not. Personally, I am not convinced. I understand the fear of causing another banking crisis but I am convinced most people already expect Greece to default anyway so - unlike with Lehman Bros. - there should be no "shock" this time.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Really? They will be allowed to re-nationalize things which get privatized? They'll be allowed to abrogate the "bailout" and renegotiate it?
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Well, they could, but there would be consequences. But if they decide to default they'll already be hugely unpopular, so what's a little more hate? Might as well go out with a bang!

But really, Greece has been privatizing since the prior government. Olympic Airways was privatized before this default crap. So not everything the troika is getting them to do is something they'd want to undo. Also, the only thing I'm aware that will be fully privatized is the casinos. The rest will be partially privatized with the state holding around half the stake in most cases. I certainly would not be happy with privatizing basic utilities, but things like the train system? Well, having been on a Greek train I can honestly say it was the worst experience ever. Privatizing the trains can only be a good thing.

The choice isn't about whether to default or not. The choice is to default while still an independent nation and keep your state property, or default as part of Europe and lose all sovereignty to Brussels. The choice is to be their own country or a "have-not" province of Europe, except without the transfer payments.
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That's certainly one way to look at it. The way I see it is that Greece was broken before the Euro/EU and it unraveled after it. The vast majority of the changes Greece is "forced" to undertake are changes they should have undertaken many years ago. What was Greece before the Euro was never sustainable. Right now Greece has a chance to reform quickly and still be part of the Euro. I think if Greece were to exit right now they'd quickly revert to how things were before and end up a basket case. They would be enslaved in poverty and corruption. Hardly a compelling alternative. So ya, worst case scenario, I think Greece would be better off as the "have-not" province of Europe.
 
Well at least now we know how to pronounce his name!
 
The Brits are telling their citizens to get out of Greece. Perhaps there will be a bombing campaign - you know, to enforce a no fly zone. :) or perhaps German tanks will roll in soon to make sure their banking interests are protected - if the Greeks reject the nice offer of having European bankers running the country from a bunker.

On the other hand - I like this Financial Times Columnist ... for obvious reasons. Greece must default if it want Democracy. The Germans may be ready to give them a helping shove.
 
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