Nothing wrong with abortion? Explain this!

[redrumloa]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/sfl-0206bot ... 9801.story

TAMPA - The Board of Medicine has revoked the license of a Florida doctor accused of medical malpractice in a botched abortion case in which a live baby was delivered.

The board on Friday found Dr. Pierre Jean-Jacque Renelique guilty of medical malpractice and delegating responsibility to unlicensed personnel.

In an administrative complaint, the Department of Health said Renelique was scheduled to perform an abortion on a teenager who was 23 weeks pregnant.

Sycloria Williams was given drugs in advance to dilate her cervix. According to the complaint, she gave birth at a Hialeah clinic after waiting hours for Renelique to arrive. A clinic owner placed the baby in a bag that was put in the trash.

Hardly seems like insignificant lump of tissue to me! how is this not murder, putting a live baby in the trash? :evil:

 

[Robert]

Nothing wrong with abortion?

Can you say, "strawman"?

 

[Glaucus]

Strawman indeed. First off all, this isn't how an abortion is supposed to be performed - medical mishaps can happy in any field. The Dr. has had his license revoked and will never practice medicine again in Florida. Criminal investigations are pending. Hardly sounds like something anyone would advocate.

As for the born fetus, 23 weeks is very young and it is recommended by some to not attempt resuscitation at that stage. In other words, even if that occurred in a PICU of any major hospital they may have still chosen to not attempt any care for it. I should ask my sister who's an attending at Winnipeg Children's Hospital PICU to see what she thinks.

- Mike

 

[faethor]

Sycloria Williams was given drugs in advance to dilate her cervix. According to the complaint, she gave birth at a Hialeah clinic after waiting hours for Renelique to arrive.

If my understanding of medical terminology is correct anytime the baby comes out prior to 30 weeks it's a abortion be it medical induced or spontaneous. After 30 weeks it's classified as a birth.

 

[redrumloa]

@faethor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premature_birth

The earliest gestational age at which the infant has at least a 50% chance of survival is referred to as the limit of viability. As NICU care has improved over the last 40 years, viability has reduced to approximately 24 weeks,[65][66] although rare survivors have been documented as early as 21 weeks.[7] Though this date is controversial as gestation in this case was measured from the date of conception rather than the date of her mother's last menstrual period gestation appear 2 weeks less than if calculated by the more common method[67]. As risk of brain damage and developmental delay is significant at that threshold even if the infant survives, there are ethical controversies over the aggressiveness of the care rendered to such infants. The limit of viability has also become a factor in the abortion debate.

Back on the original article, it states a live birth and the baby put in a bag and put in the trash. By definition, isn't that murder?

As much as I despise abortion, I do feel for the mother here too. Imagine the mental torment she will go through the rest of her life.

 

[faethor]

Back on the original article, it states a live birth and the baby put in a bag and put in the trash. By definition, isn't that murder?

Certainly and the Dr. is no longer a Dr. So at least in that aspect the system is working. We don't know yet if/how he may be charged. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[Glaucus]

I fully expect the anti-abortion lobby to jump all over this "horror story" and fill the airwaves with it, when in reality I would think it's ultra-rare or possibly even a one-time occurrence.

 

[Robert]

I fully expect the anti-abortion lobby to jump all over this "horror story" and fill the airwaves with it, when in reality I would think it's ultra-rare or possibly even a one-time occurrence.

Indeed. It's always absurdly ridiculous when the same, so called 'pro-life' brigade are almost always the same people who will defend the death penalty, even though we know innocent people have been and will continue to be murdered by the state.



It's also absurd that almost everyone I hear complaining loudly about abortion is male. I always think, "You don't want abortion? Fine, don't have one."

 

[redrumloa]

It's also absurd that almost everyone I hear complaining loudly about abortion is male. I always think, "You don't want abortion? Fine, don't have one."

The people who processed Susan Smith were also likely male.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Smith

A mother murdering her children is rare, should men look the other way on that too? As much as the pro abortion crowd wants to silence any debate, it is just not that cut and dry. Both men and women make laws.

/me puts on flame suit

I can probably predict the response this will get :x

 

[Speelgoedmannetje]

As much as the pro abortion crowd wants to silence any debate,

Oh nice turndown of ppl with other opinions. Nicely playing the victim.

 

[redrumloa]

As much as the pro abortion crowd wants to silence any debate,

Oh nice turndown of ppl with other opinions. Nicely playing the victim.

But people trying to silence you for your gender is fine?

 

[Robert]

As much as the pro abortion crowd wants to silence any debate,

Oh nice turndown of ppl with other opinions. Nicely playing the victim.

But people trying to silence you for your gender is fine?

Oh, grow up! I'm not trying to silence you and am sure you know that fine well.
Another straw man. :roll:
My point stands: those who complain loudest about abortions are those who will never have to go through the very real trauma of deciding whether or not to have one. (Unless you have a womb, Lorretta? ython: )
And they almost always think the death penalty is just peachy.

Perhaps you can explain that to me, Jim, regardless of the rights and wrongs: Why do people who are against abortion almost always turn out to be:
a) Men
b) Pro-death penalty.

Whyzzat?

 

[Glaucus]

Even if most men did look away from the Susan Smith case, there's plenty of women who'd be outraged. Robert's point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that opinions on abortion vary depending on gender, but in your choice of a poor analogy the reactions would not be dependent on gender.

 

[redrumloa]

Perhaps you can explain that to me, Jim, regardless of the rights and wrongs: Why do people who are against abortion almost always turn out to be:
a) Men
b) Pro-death penalty.

Whyzzat?

And you are talking about straw men? A is not true, a good balance of women are against abortion. You will simply not hear about it in pop culture because it is a different class of people.

B is probably true, but that should be common sense. Infant children are innocent human beings. People on death row are the polar opposite. On the flip side it is completely baffling to me how someone can despise the death penalty believe that abortion is honky dory.

The problem is people who are "pro choice" like to believe it is not a baby, but an insignificant lump of flesh. This article shows that the baby was a viable human being at 21 weeks. Isn't this worthy of discussion, especially when unwanted pregnancy can easily be avoided?

 

[faethor]

B is probably true, but that should be common sense. Infant children are innocent human beings. People on death row are the polar opposite.

Statistics have shown about 1/2 the people on death row are the polar opposite.

This article shows that the baby was a viable human being at 21 weeks.

How is viablility measured? I'm doubtful a 21 week old will survive without major medical technological intervention.

Isn't this worthy of discussion, especially when unwanted pregnancy can easily be avoided?

Abortions should be legal, made safer, and be rare. Unfortunately, many anti-abortionists are anti-sex-ed. Instead of hoping to keep people ignorant and hoping they won't figure out tab-a goes into slot-b we need to educate and make protection widely and easily available and without shame.

 

[redrumloa]

Unfortunately, many anti-abortionists are anti-sex-ed.

You could say that and there would be a shred of truth. However, I can also say that many "pro-choice" people consider abortion to be just another form of birth control and there would be a shred of truth.

 

[Glaucus]

This article shows that the baby was a viable human being at 21 weeks.

How is viablility measured? I'm doubtful a 21 week old will survive without major medical technological intervention.

Talked to my sister today (she specializes in this field) and she tells me that 20-21 week olds are pretty much the youngest that have a chance at surviving and that many facilities probably wouldn't be able to pull it off. But more importantly, if they do survive they will have severe medical problems that will last them the rest of their lives. Which is why they're unlikely to resuscitate anything younger then 24 weeks but 30 weeks is where the baby has a good chance at a healthy life. Again, they have the technology to resuscitate 20 week olds but due to quality of life issues they say it's best not to.

[quote:vigp97m1] Isn't this worthy of discussion, especially when unwanted pregnancy can easily be avoided?

Abortions should be legal, made safer, and be rare. Unfortunately, many anti-abortionists are anti-sex-ed. Instead of hoping to keep people ignorant and hoping they won't figure out tab-a goes into slot-b we need to educate and make protection widely and easily available and without shame.[/quote:vigp97m1]Amen. I find that the anti-abortion lobby equates abortion with birth-control. Fact is, no one sees abortion that lightly and it is never an easy decision. Like Faethor says, we need legal abortion, but that needs to be coupled with much better sex-ed for kids going through puberty. Abortion should never be the first line of defense, but it should available as the last line.

 

[Robert]

A is not true, a good balance of women are against abortion. You will simply not hear about it....

Not hear about it? Isn't that just another way of saying what I already did? i.e. Those shouting loudest about it are usually men? That's certainly my perception.

Again, I ask, Whyzzat? You alluded to a 'different class' of people. I have no idea what you mean by this.

 

[faethor]

Unfortunately, many anti-abortionists are anti-sex-ed.

You could say that and there would be a shred of truth. However, I can also say that many "pro-choice" people consider abortion to be just another form of birth control and there would be a shred of truth.

Abortion is birth-control. It should be the last option. It is often the last option. Abortion is quite rate ~2% of the women in the USA use it as an option. Even less, under 1%, use it as a repeat form of birth control. Personally I'm against it. However, I'm more against the state dictating sexual morals.

I can name half dozen pro-lifers who were against birth control because after all it's a sin in God's eyes. Somehow they managed to excuse the sin of premartial sex to get pregnant however.

Politically when one views the anti-abortionists they are the same one's arguing that ignorance education is the way to go for yout.

 

[Speelgoedmannetje]

I wouldn't have cared if my parents would have aborted me