Palestinian Papers

[Robert]

Leaked papers suggest what most of us already knew...

Israeli and US claims of "trying to negotiate," with the Palestinians are a complete sham.

Still awaiting verification of these files but early indications are that they are genuine.

If so, they only reinforce the hard to ignore impression that Israel wants nothing less than to eliminate the Arabs in both the Palestinian territories and it's own borders. And Obama comes out of it looking almost as bad as Bush, which, somewhat depressingly, is no longer a surprise to anyone paying attention.

For some reason, whilst reading through some of these files, I couldn't help thinking of the way Native Americans' claims to their own land were "negotiated" out of existence (on pain of death, of course). I can envisage a similar fate for the Palestinians.

 

[Glaucus]

Did you really believe that the 5 million Palestinians would ever be allowed to go back to their homes? If that were to happen, I'd demand Turkey give back Constantinople and that my grand parents home in Smyrna be returned to us. It's not gonna happen. At least not peacefully. Land exchanges hands only by force. In that respect the Palestinians are screwed. They can only work towards creating a state that is independent of Israel, and of course, peace.

 

[Robert]

Did you really believe that the 5 million Palestinians would ever be allowed to go back to their homes?

Of course not and I'm pretty sure I never implied that. If you honestly think I believe that, you've *completely* misunderstood me.

Quite the opposite, in fact.
As I said, it's become increasingly apparent (over the last two decades on a personal level) that Israel wants 'ethnic cleansing.' Nothing less will do. And I really don't see anything stopping them from achieving their 'final solution.'

So your question is a straw man, I'm afraid.

But that isn't really the point of this thread.

Rather, it's the rubbish we've been fed ever since I was a child (and before that) that the Israelis and, by extension, the USA would be happy to let every last one of them back if only the mischievous little oiks would stop blowing themselves up and taking innocent people with them.

Complete nonsense and these papers, if genuine, only reinforce the impression that the only so called peace that Israel is interested in is one which involves 'removing' the Palestinians.

And the slap-you-in-the-face-with-a-wet-fish irony that this approach is being perpetrated by a country which was purportedly created for victims of a previous attempt at ethnic cleansing seems to pass most people by because you don't really see it on mainstream news.

As a child I thought it was the 'PLO' who had invaded Israel - that was the impression given by the BBC and other mainstream UK news outlets in the late 70s and early 80s. (Much in the same way as I thought the Vietnamese were the bad guys who attacked the good, ole USA.)
Now the parroted narrative is that it's the poor Israelis are only looking for a "genuine partner for peace," and the Palestinians are the ones who won't negotiate.

It's fabricated pish, as I'm sure you are well aware.

 

[Glaucus]

I've never been under the impression that Israel wants anything other then a Jewish state. And that's not really a problem for me in principle, the problem with Israel is how it's going about doing it. Kicking people out of their homes is not cool. But like I said it happened and they're not likely to ever let them back. I wasn't even aware that the Israelis were pretending to consider the idea of letting them back in. What I do know is that this is a big issue for the Palestinians and has been a major hurdle for negotiations. I'm of the opinion that Palestinians should give up on this one issue as they really have no chance of getting those lands back peacefully. Instead they should offer to give up their claims in exchange for the removal of all Israeli settlements. Once those two issues are dealt with, then the rest of the peace process should be much smoother.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

And the slap-you-in-the-face-with-a-wet-fish irony that this approach is being perpetrated by a country which was purportedly created for victims of a previous attempt at ethnic cleansing seems to pass most people by because you don't really see it on mainstream news.

The other great irony is that this ethnic cleansing is being perpetrated by Eastern European converts to Judaism against the original Jewish population that converted to Islam under the Ottoman Empire.

As a child I thought it was the 'PLO' who had invaded Israel...

This is still the impression that many people have (and it is deliberately propagated by the media) that it is the Palestinians who are the occupiers in the Occupied Territories.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

I've never been under the impression that Israel wants anything other then a Jewish state. And that's not really a problem for me in principle,

Precisely "in principle" it is a problem, because in principle it is a racist and theocratic state. I object to a Jewish state for Jews just as much as a Christian state for whites. We should be saying goodbye and good riddance to those old ideas.

I'm of the opinion that Palestinians should give up on this one issue as they really have no chance of getting those lands back peacefully. Instead they should offer to give up their claims in exchange for the removal of all Israeli settlements. Once those two issues are dealt with, then the rest of the peace process should be much smoother.

Just another example of the terrible job the media does. You must be unaware that Hamas has offered to recognize Israel and abide by the (internationally recognized) 1967 border. Of course, Israel doesn't consider Hamas a legitimate authority. On the other hand, Abbas also recognizes the 1967 border, Israel "negotiates" with him but only for appearances. There is no good faith on the Israeli side. The long term goal is to absorb all of the occupied territories and southern Lebanon and get rid of all goyim.

 

[Glaucus]

This is still the impression that many people have (and it is deliberately propagated by the media) that it is the Palestinians who are the occupiers in the Occupied Territories.

I'm actually surprised at that, I never even considered that. I'm pretty sure I always knew what was going on in Israel, and when I was young I'd watch the National on the CBC with my parents every night. We'd see Palestinian kids throwing rocks at tanks. Who sends kids armed with rocks to invade a nation with tanks? I'd like to see a poll on this.

 

[Glaucus]

Precisely "in principle" it is a problem, because in principle it is a racist and theocratic state. I object to a Jewish state for Jews just as much as a Christian state for whites. We should be saying goodbye and good riddance to those old ideas.

Saying good bye to those old ideas is also saying good bye to those old cultures. For anyone living in the new world, that may not be a big deal. For many living in countries like Greece, watching their culture being eroded away is troubling. Greeks take pride in their ancient history and their achievements and it gives them an identity. They also get pretty upset when others try to steal their identity (see FYROM vs Macedonia). I understand that culture is something worth preserving. But culture isn't necessarily tied to race and therefore protecting a culture is not necessarily racist. You said it yourself, not all Israeli Jews are ethnically the same.

Having said that, society still needs to be modern to some degree. Human rights, women's rights, gay & lesbian rights, etc need to match today's world expectations. Preserving a culture should never provide cover for such things. In fact, it must also be understood that culture evolves and changes with time and is really a product of the people.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

I'd like to see a poll on this.

Well, I didn't find the study but I found a BBC report referring to it. Bare in mind that this is from the UK, a country not nearly as rabidly Zionist as the USA (or Canada).

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Meanwhile a growing list of countries have recognized Palestine and Palestinian diplomatic outlook is improving.

--
edit - Here's a list.

 

[Glaucus]

Here's a list.

Here's a better one :wink:

 

[Robert]

@Mike:

The following comment is somewhat baffling and suggests that the entire issue thrown up by these revelations has completely passed you by:

I'm of the opinion that Palestinians should give up on this one issue as they really have no chance of getting those lands back peacefully. Instead they should offer to give up their claims in exchange for the removal of all Israeli settlements.

Did you actually take in any of this story? And if you did, do you still think that would make the slightest bit of difference?

They've already gone further than you suggest - it made no difference.

Even a cursory glance at the link in my original post would have told you that, assuming these papers are genuine, the Palestinians have continuously and repeatedly given concession after concession after concession, including illegal settlements, only to be given the square root of {bleep} all in return.

You also mentioned five million refugees returning. They agreed to just 10,000, spread out over 1,000 per year for a decade.

This is the point: it doesn't matter what they agree to, it will never be enough. Your first comment seemed to imply that not only did you already know this but you were surprised that anyone else didn't. So to subsequently appear to have completely missed it has left me wondering what you meant in the first place.

Perhaps you could clarify?

 

[Robert]

I've never been under the impression that Israel wants anything other then a Jewish state. And that's not really a problem for me in principle,

That surprises me.

I do have a problem with it.
Any state set up on the sectarian principle of keeping down the 'other' makes my skin crawl.

The idea of an exclusively White South Africa, Protestant Ulster, Catholic Eire, Muslim Saudi?
I have a problem with every single one of those ideas. Thankfully only one of the above remains as officially sectarian as much of it's population once aspired to.

 

[Robert]

I'm pretty sure I always knew what was going on in Israel

Well, I'm delighted you were astute enough to see through the propaganda and you should give yourself a pat on the back because you were one of the few.

The story Fluffy linked to only covers my country but, in case you can't be arsed clicking the link:

An academic study suggests that TV news coverage in the UK on the Middle East conflict confuses viewers and features a preponderance of Israeli views.

So much so, that many viewers think Israeli territory is occupied by Palestinians, not the other way round.

This was the generally held view when I was a child and, as indicated above, continues to be the case.

The BBC in particular is well known for favouring the Israeli version of events, (acknowledged by some of it's own staff) parroting Israeli propaganda, giving airtime to Israeli spokesmen but no Palestinian spokesmen, etc, etc.

The only way the general public can find out about the real story is to do their own research and most are either too busy with other things or just not interested but they still see mainstream news, which forms the false view alluded to above, among other misconceptions.

 

[Robert]

Precisely "in principle" it is a problem, because in principle it is a racist and theocratic state. I object to a Jewish state for Jews just as much as a Christian state for whites. We should be saying goodbye and good riddance to those old ideas.

Saying good bye to those old ideas is also saying good bye to those old cultures. For anyone living in the new world, that may not be a big deal. For many living in countries like Greece, watching their culture being eroded away is troubling.

Comparing Greece to Israel in the context of protecting culture might be valid if only Orthodox Greeks were allowed to vote and everyone else was a 2nd class citizen, huge numbers of whom were contained in a massive, walled-off ghetto, at the mercy of Orthodox snipers who are never, ever held to account for the numerous murders of children they commit. But Greece isn't *quite* like that.

If the only way to protect your culture is to persecute, humiliate and slaughter others, perhaps your culture isn't all it's cracked up to be?

 

[Glaucus]

Did you actually take in any of this story? And if you did, do you still think that would make the slightest bit of difference?

They've already gone further than you suggest - it made no difference.

I'm sorry but i really don't know what you're talking about here. The article you linked to is about secret negotiations between the Israelis and the Palestinian leadership to basically do what i suggested above, and that is to give up their land claims for the refugees. The controversy isn't what Israel has said or done here, it's that the Palestinian leadership is actually considering such a deal at all. In other words, the Palestinian people are accusing the Palestinian leadership of caving. Although really they haven't as they never really formally agreed to any of it because they knew it would likely mean they would be blown to bits by their own people. However, now the cat is out of the bag and Palestinians are talking about it. And like I said above, I hope the Palestinians (note, I'm not talking about the leadership here) choose not to kill their leaders but to instead support them.

Is that more clear?

Even a cursory glance at the link in my original post would have told you that, assuming these papers are genuine, the Palestinians have continuously and repeatedly given concession after concession after concession, including illegal settlements, only to be given the square root of {bleep} all in return.

And I guess this is why we seem to be talking past each other here. I don't see it that way at all. It seems that the Palestinian leadership has considered some deals that they could live with but out of fear from the more extremist sector of the population have chosen not to go through with it. From the article:

The scale of the compromise secretly agreed on refugees will be controversial among Palestinians who see the flight or expulsion of refugees when Israel was created in 1948 as their catastrophe

And it also appears that the PA is willing to betray the Palestinians inside Israel:

But publicly PA leaders reject any ethnic or religious definition of Israel, and it is fiercely opposed by many of Israel's 1.3 million Palestinian citizens

However, none of this is a done deal. To do any of this it would need to be made public and I'm guessing that's the stumbling block here. They made some concessions that they can't sell to their own people. No where in this article does it say that Israel rejected any of this, which is what you seem to be implying. If I'm wrong, please quote the passage.

 

[Robert]

none of this is a done deal. To do any of this it would need to be made public and I'm guessing that's the stumbling block here.

OK, you're right - we see this completely differently. I don't see that as the main stumbling block at all.
My impression is that, over the duration of the so called 'peace process' the PA has repeatedly gone back to agree to previous Israeli demands, only to be met with further demands.

You really don't see that pattern?

They made some concessions that they can't sell to their own people. No where in this article does it say that Israel rejected any of this,

Yes it does.

which is what you seem to be implying. If I'm wrong, please quote the passage.

The exchange in this document contains an offer to allow Israel to annex all but one of the illegal settlements built in occupied East Jerusalem. These were unprecedented concessions that would have been incredibly difficult to sell to their own people. Israel rejected them out of hand.

The offer was turned down by Livni, "We do not like this suggestion because it does not meet our demands.."

Israeli demands on this occasion were to include the one remaining settlement.

Now, you seem to think that would satisfy the Israelis.
I don't.