Progressive Democrats gone wild on the left coast.

[redrumloa]

OC Couple Threatened With $500-Per-Meeting Fines For Home Bible Study

An Orange County couple has been ordered to stop holding a Bible study in their home on the grounds that the meeting violates a city ordinance as a “church” and not as a private gathering.
Homeowners Chuck and Stephanie Fromm, of San Juan Capistrano, were fined $300 earlier this month for holding what city officials called “a regular gathering of more than three people”.

 

[the_leander]

I'd be interested to see what the origins of the law in question was.

No doubt a reaction to something way back when that is now being re-used for things never intended.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

“The Fromm case further involves regular meetings on Sunday mornings and Thursday afternoons with up to 50 people, with impacts on the residential neighborhood on street access and parking,” City Attorney Omar Sandoval said.

$500 isn't enough. If you can get 50 people together twice a week you can afford to get a proper meeting room.

 

[Dammy]

$500 isn't enough. If you can get 50 people together twice a week you can afford to get a proper meeting room.

I'll bite, how much for a meeting room twice a week in Orange County, CA that holds atleast 50 people?

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

I'll bite, how much for a meeting room twice a week in Orange County, CA that holds atleast 50 people?

I couldn't say about Orange county but you could get a decent hall in downtown Vancouver for $50 a night - if you know where to go.

 

[redrumloa]

Of course, Fluffy missed the plot because someone is sticking it to Christians (who are almost as bad as Jews).

Need a permit for 3 people or more to assemble is no accident. First they use it on bible study because in CA that is the low hanging fruit, the majority won't complain. Next will be political dissenters. If you name isn't Bill Ayers, Barack Obama or such you will need to get a permit to have friends over to discuss politics. Of course once the permit is reviewed and determined not to be for people of the "proper" political mindset, the permit will be denied.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Need a permit for 3 people or more to assemble is no accident. First they use it on bible study because in CA that is the low hanging fruit, the majority won't complain.

This group used to meet in a clubhouse.
They met in their own house while the clubhouse was being renovated.
They were notified that they would need to apply for a Conditional Use Permit if they wished to hold regular gatherings.
They didn't and were fined $100 and told to apply for a CUP.
They paid the fine but didn't apply for the CUP and were fined $200 and told to apply for a CUP.
They paid the fine and the clubhouse renovations were completed and they meet again in the clubhouse.

 

[redrumloa]

This group used to meet in a clubhouse.
They met in their own house while the clubhouse was being renovated.
They were notified that they would need to apply for a Conditional Use Permit if they wished to hold regular gatherings.
They didn't and were fined $100 and told to apply for a CUP.
They paid the fine but didn't apply for the CUP and were fined $200 and told to apply for a CUP.
They paid the fine and the clubhouse renovations were completed and they meet again in the clubhouse.

Why would they need to in the first place? I have a family of 6 living under my roof, do I need a permit? If I have 3 friends over for football every weekend during the season, do I need a permit?

Ridiculous.

 

[Glaucus]

Isn't this all about zoning laws? Running a business out of your home can be a problem. The number 3 might be a bit on the low side here, but in a crowded place with limited parking, that might be about right.

 

[the_leander]

Why would they need to in the first place? I have a family of 6 living under my roof, do I need a permit? If I have 3 friends over for football every weekend during the season, do I need a permit?

Do you live in CA? As for why they'd need it, rather than ask here, why not actually look into the law itself, it's history and why it was first legislated for...

Ridiculous.

There are hundreds of old laws out there that would qualify for that title.

 

[redrumloa]

Isn't this all about zoning laws? Running a business out of your home can be a problem. The number 3 might be a bit on the low side here, but in a crowded place with limited parking, that might be about right.

The article states the neighbors have no problem and have even told the city such. This is all about control and revenue, mostly control. Civil unrest is coming so might as well practice the mechanisms to squash free speech and assembly.

 

[redrumloa]

Do you live in CA?

CA is the progressive model for the rest of the country. What starts in the failed state of CA ends up being pushed on the rest of the country.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Why would they need to in the first place? I have a family of 6 living under my roof, do I need a permit?

I presume you are zone for residential, are you not?

If I have 3 friends over for football every weekend during the season, do I need a permit?

What about between 20 and 50 ? Anyway, they are back to meeting at the clubhouse now and there seems to be no problem with that, so obviously it's not about preventing them from meeting.

They may have had some concerns about the Fromms running a business (church) in their house. Chuck Fromm is the editor of Worship Leader magazine and is an officer of Worship Leader Inc. There is another Fromm listed as an officer of Worship Leader Inc and that is Charles E Fromm. Charles E Fromm is an officer also of Worship Leader LLC. Worship Leader seems to be in the business of publishing and has a religious music store. Between the magazine and the music business the company does between 1 and 2.5 million in business annually and both have been around since 2000 and 2001.

 

[faethor]

At first blush this seems like a 'freedom to assembly problem'. Reading different sources for news this appears to me to be a case of this church group got put out of their building, met in a home for a few weeks then went back to their building. This broke the city ordinarce about running a non-profit out of your home. Many communities around the US have strict rules about locations for buisness, non-profits, and residential. Perhaps they shouldn't and I welcome this group in making a State or Federal appeal to 'freedom to assembly' being against zoning ordinarces.

In other news real freedom to assembly problems are happening in NYC. Thousands are peacefully protesting. Except when the police round them up and mace them.

Oh as for the 'progressive dem' claim -- nothing showed that anywhere and I think post #12 made it crystal clear that Red is painting with the broad brush of oversimplification and stereotyping.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

The article states the neighbors have no problem and have even told the city such.

The article failed to mention that there is one neighbour who is not fine with the Fromms and he was the one that called the city to enforce the ordinance. You can go on about the city all you want but they enforce only when someone complains which is how it is in most cities since enforcement can't be all over the place snooping all the time - there are insufficient resources and no-one wants that anyway.
Enforcement generally only happens when neighbours find they can't get along or settle things between themselves.

By the way, the ordinance is section 9-3.301 of the Capistrano Municipal code adopted February 20, 1980. The section requires a permit for Religious, fraternal, or nonprofit organizations (nonprofit) use in residential zoning.
Which includes:

churches, temples, synagogues, monasteries, religious retreats, and other places of religious worship and other fraternal and community service organizations.

Community Service organizations include such as the Shriners and fraternal organizations are unions and groups like the Masons.

The last change to section 9-3.301 was adding PRD as a land use (2007 - for condos and such) to the table of non-standard uses but this doesn't change the ordinance for existing land uses.


The Municipal Code was codified by municode.com of Tallahassee.

 

[Glaucus]

By the way, the ordinance is section 9-3.301 of the Capistrano Municipal code adopted February 20, 1980. The section requires a permit for Religious, fraternal, or nonprofit organizations (nonprofit) use in residential zoning.

This is a tangent, but it's funny the things we look up for the sake of an internet "discussion". And to think we could put that time and effort into something actually useful and productive. I should be vacuuming the house for instance, but instead I'm making this post. Silly me.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

This is a tangent, but it's funny the things we look up for the sake of an internet "discussion". And to think we could put that time and effort into something actually useful and productive.

I'm also compiling and cutting video.