Ron Paul: Health care NOT a right, will cost beyond $1T

I never liked Ron Paul that much. And no, he's dead wrong.
 
Glaucus said:
I never liked Ron Paul that much. And no, he's dead wrong.
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No, he is dead right. There is a reason why the only big business hot and heavy for this plan is Walmart. You are Canadian, maybe you do not know how efficient our government is. Ask anyone how much they like going to the DMV. Regulations, taxes (and bogus malpractice lawsuits) are the primary reason health care costs are so high right now.
 
who are these "Libs"??

and in a perfect world every person would practise Prevention and keep themselves healthy for the great majority of their lives. That would save a gazzilion dollars

but, hey, who listens to me
 
cecilia said:
who are these "Libs"??

and in a perfect world every person would practise Prevention and keep themselves healthy for the great majority of their lives. That would save a gazzilion dollars

but, hey, who listens to me
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Do you actually agree with me (and Ron Paul) about Obama's health care plan being a horror? If so, I will happily apologize.
 
redrumloa said:
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/281590/Healthcare-Is-%22Not-a-Right%22-and-Obama's-Plan-Will-Cost-Way-Beyond-1T-Ron-Paul-Says?tickers=%5Edji,%5EGSPC,pph,jnj,mrk,pfe,unh&sec=topStories&pos=9&asset=&ccode=

Libs here will not like this one, but Ron Paul is right once again!
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$1T over 10 years? That's optimistic. The UK NHS costs £110bn each year which is £1.1Trillian ($1.8T) over a decade. That's for a population of just 60 million people. Multiply it by 5 and add 20% for the inevitable bureaucracy.
 
cecilia said:
who are these "Libs"??

and in a perfect world every person would practise Prevention and keep themselves healthy for the great majority of their lives. That would save a gazzilion dollars

but, hey, who listens to me
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Ah, yes, let's all blame the sick.

(I know you don't, but it's a side effect of your statement).

Anyway, as health care is extremely vulnerable to monopolies, it should be nationalised anyway if you want those dollars to have a positive effect on the quality. Otherwise it's only a investment in the luxurious yacht of a fat cat.

And btw. I take it that you leave wounded people to rot on the street when hit by a car (for instance)? I mean, health care not being a right, is *quite* barbaric in my eyes.
 
redrumloa said:
Ask anyone how much they like going to the DMV.
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I love the DMV. Last time I walked in, walked up to a counter, didn't have to take a number, got my stuff done in minutes time. Unlike my for profit doctor who I was sick and off of work and was offered the first opening in 2 weeks.

Regulations, taxes (and bogus malpractice lawsuits) are the primary reason health care costs are so high right now.
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I agree not enough regulation helps ensure gouging of the customer and eliminates large markets keeping rates and medicine costs high. This allows a nice middleman where they take a slice of the pie for moving around the money but providing 0 medical benefit.

Canadian regulations suck! What happened? In a nation with less population than the USA they put everyone on the same plan. Then this stupid regulation allowed the all-in-one plan to negotiate with pill makers. The pill makers said yup lots of people here so we'll let you pay less than the USA. Simple -- prices go down when the regulations go up....
 
redrumloa said:
cecilia said:
who are these "Libs"??

and in a perfect world every person would practise Prevention and keep themselves healthy for the great majority of their lives. That would save a gazzilion dollars

but, hey, who listens to me
Click to expand...

Do you actually agree with me (and Ron Paul) about Obama's health care plan being a horror? If so, I will happily apologize.
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I HAVE lived my entire life with prevention as the key

I spent most of my childhood and adulthood exercising because I knew that females can lose calcium if they don't take care of themselves. SO I spent a grreat deal of time gaining as much muscle mass and calcium as i could. And I mean in a natual way. with exercise and eating normal food.

I never smoked, took drugs, or abused my body. got lots of sleep.

I'm sure I made "mistakes", but I certainly made the effort.

and that's why I'm doing ok. dispite having an injury a while ago, I can't afford to see doctors. SO I handled it all on my own. and I'm doing fine.

I don't expect to live forever or crap like that. when it's time to go, I'm off!
I'm NOT going to a hospital to become a guinea pig.

and it's horrible that so many people are constantly taking perscription drugs. there's no way I want to live like that
 
cecilia said:
I HAVE lived my entire life with prevention as the key
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And it is to a point...

No one should be subject to bankrupcy or death do to unpreventable illnesses. For examples consider lives of people changed by genetic illnesses (MS, Autuism, Cancer) and random dumb luck.

Some diseases are simply a matter of a body breaking down, no matter how many miles you ran, milk you drank or veggies you ate. The body can repair itself. But, after 40 the regenerative properties are beginning to be dampened due to age. Of course if someone gives up healthy living this makes things worse. But, healthy living is no guarantee that you'll go painless in short order in your sleep just of old age.
 
I don't disagree faethor

I did say I don't plan on living forever


My cousin died in her 30's at least partly because she smoked.
My aunt (her mother) has had cancer and other issues at least partly because she smoked.

my mother is healthy and has lived as i have.

I have also said on this board that I would rather be dead than in debt. and it IS my choice because I made it long ago. and I already know that americans don't give a rats ass about me. So i have taken care of myself as best I can with that reality in mind
 
Cecilia, you're doing fine because you're lucky. I'm not saying preventative measures don't work, they certainly do - eating right, exercising and not smoking all goes a long way, but when you're sick you're sick. You're just lucky you haven't been that sick and I hope it stays that way. But we're not talking about medical care for healthy people, we're talking about medical care for sick people. Choosing death over debt isn't a great survival skill as far as I'm concerned. Is it the recession that's getting everyone so comfortable with the idea of their own death these days?

Anyway, my point is most people will gladly trade debt for death, but even then one can only accept so much debt. The idea of a government sponsored medical care (or the right to medicine) is that society pools it's resources so that the healthy help the sick become healthy again. And since everyone gets sick at some point, everyone benefits. I know this is something conservatives hate to admit, but human beings like to live in close proximity with each other because a combined effort is better then an individual effort. A healthy population is more productive. What's the cost to the US economy of all those who are too sick to work because they're too poor to get treatment?

Of course there's also the globalization issue. Since most other nations subsidize their medical care in one way or another, US firms are stuck having to provide some form of group policy for their employees. This puts US firms at a disadvantage while strengthening US labor unions. Wanna take a huge bite out of labor unions? Introduce government sponsored health care.

Now, what exactly is Obama planning? I'm not sure. But I do believe that private health care is counter productive.
 
I admit I'm lucky

I'm lucky I was born in a family that took very good care of me. gave me the best food, education and values possible. I have always been thankful of that.

and am sad that so many others are NOT so lucky.

I also know many americans are selfish and will go into this idea of helping others kicking and screaming.

Of course it's rational to keep one's fellow humans as healthy as possible because (selfishly) it's good for ME too. That's why i have always tried to give my friends good advice on many things including health.

but I know many people don't like advice. and they don't like being rational. so, i am not holding my breath for sudden realization on how to become smart. I can only do so much.
One thing I DO know - the "health" system in the US is broken and stupid. Too many people are getting rich on the backs of the sick. One way other the other things will change. and at this point I can't say what will happen.
 
cecilia said:
and am sad that so many others are NOT so lucky.
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And some win the anti-prizes... 33 year old woman killed by falling concrete Wrong place / wrong time... Sad.

Of course it's rational to keep one's fellow humans as healthy as possible because (selfishly) it's good for ME too. That's why i have always tried to give my friends good advice on many things including health.
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Which is a good reason for national healthcare. It may result in us helping others more often cuz we know it'll be our dime too. Having the business pay for healthcare takes out the rationalization, no one cares if your business loses money here as long as the check clears.

One thing I DO know - the "health" system in the US is broken and stupid. Too many people are getting rich on the backs of the sick. One way other the other things will change. and at this point I can't say what will happen.
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Our system is undoubtabley broken. The problem with our system is that everyone wants to be profitable. Now it makes sense for doctors to make money. It makes sense for hospitals to make money. But, the middlemen who add no value need to go. Their job is to knock the sick people out so they can profit. Sad. So we end up with a system 2x as expensive as other nations and about as good. This is an economical disadvantage for our nation. This is why GM pays about $1800 per car for healthcare and Honda is around $300... And we're suprised GM is losing money?


Nice to see honesty in the GOP Rep
 
This is one of the few things I have to side completely AGAINST Ron Paul on. The funny thing is, honestly, I'm not all that liberal, either.

I love the DMV. Last time I walked in, walked up to a counter, didn't have to take a number, got my stuff done in minutes time. Unlike my for profit doctor who I was sick and off of work and was offered the first opening in 2 weeks.
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I haven't had that good of luck at the DMV, but come to think of it, I *HAVE* still gotten better, faster, and more accurate service there than at the doctors office my old shitty insurance said I had to go to. I've only had to wait about 2 hours at the DMV (vs several days for an appointment) and the DMV got everything sorted out in a single visit (vs several visits and much pain from the doctor).

And, seriously, health care NOT a right? Well, I suppose it's not spelled out, but really? Health care has the very direct and unarguable effect of "life". Last time I looked, that was still one of the inalienable rights we're fighting to preserve. It's not spelled out that you have a right to drink fresh water, either. How about we just petition our wasteful government to end public drinking water, so we can all buy it bottled? Who are we to stand in the way of privatization? While we're at it, lets ease the checks on its safety, too. The market can determine that, after all. Sound good?

With the completely immoral things I've seen private insurance companies do to their "customers", I'd much rather take my chances with the government. Sure, government is bigger, more incompetent, and less organized, but that has the side effect of usually being less criminal. And, honestly, the overall cost to me can't be any higher. Nationalized health care only looks expensive until you really take into consideration the actual percent of the GDP that currently goes to "health care."
 
ilwrath said:
And, seriously, health care NOT a right? Well, I suppose it's not spelled out, but really? Health care has the very direct and unarguable effect of "life". Last time I looked, that was still one of the inalienable rights we're fighting to preserve. It's not spelled out that you have a right to drink fresh water, either. How about we just petition our wasteful government to end public drinking water, so we can all buy it bottled?
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Mr. Hammer, allow me to introduce you to the head of the nail.

The logic of what you have written is difficult to ignore but, as you can see, plenty do ignore it, regardless.
 
Despite some of the love shown for it in this thread, most americans do NOT want Obama's health care plan, right or left!

(Wanring! Crap load of popups from this site!)

http://www.rightpundits.com/?p=4355

President Barack Obama has begun a massive media campaign to get the public rallied behind him on health care reform. Unfortunately for him, not even his charisma is working on this issue.

The latest survey shows that only forty-nine percent of people questioned in an ABC News/Washington Post survey approve of Obama’s health care policy. Also, as the vote nears and people are getting more attuned to the issue, Obama is losing support. Support for his health care policy is down four points from June, and nine points from three months ago.

Given that people didn’t really start paying attention until recently, I suspect these numbers will continue to plummet.
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faethor said:
Back in Black ... Healthcare
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Uuuh....

Now, before someone says Black didn't offer substantive facts in his rebuttals, sometimes folks, when you're dealing with truly stupid talking points, the best response isn't one filled with facts and figures, but rather snarky dismissiveness.
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You serious faethor? You really fall for this Liberal nonsense? There are no facts or figures, just snarky dismissiveness? Sounds like the GOP is spot on.
 
You serious faethor? You really fall for this Liberal nonsense? There are no facts or figures, just snarky dismissiveness
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I found Black amusing. I couldn't find the direct link at Comedy Central otherwise I would have done that. So watch the video.
 
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