Tasty morsel of barefaced hypocrisy

US government:

EU sending arms to Syria = Good.
Russia sending arms to Syria - Bad.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/28/israel-warns-russia-against-arming-syrian-rebels
Actually they're both bad, but Russia has been doing it for a while. So has Iran and Hezbollah has even put boots on the ground. That's the only way Assad could stay in power as the vast majority of Syrians want him gone.

Personally I think arming the rebels is probably not the right move, but I could be wrong. I think what NATO should do is quickly destroy all the heavy equipment sent to Syria by Russia. Take out the S300s and then take out their airbases as well. If Assad was forced to fight a more fair fight, the war would end pretty quickly.
 
That's the only way Assad could stay in power as the vast majority of Syrians want him gone.
The majority of Syrians want peace and will back Assad over competing blocks of foreign and domestic extremists. A clear victory by a strong leader already in charge of an existing government structure that has show already shown that it is capable of running the country is preferable to decades of civil war as in Iraq.

I think what NATO should do is quickly destroy all the heavy equipment sent to Syria by Russia.
I think what NATO (meaning the US and the ruthless Arab dictators it calls friends) should but out. They should never have started this. With one strong ruler to negotiate with the people are better off than having to try to live for years with various warring factions including groups that are quite happy to slaughter every Christian in a whole town. You advocate turning a largely secular state into another Islamic theocracy.

If Assad was forced to fight a more fair fight, the war would end pretty quickly.
If the rebels were forced to fight with only the support they can get from the Syrian people the war would end quickly.

Should the Russians have backed the separatists in Quebec with weapons and training and logistics because it was quite obvious that Trudeau wasn't going to give them what they wanted? A near majority of Quebecers would have supported separation (which Pravada could claim was an overwhelming majority to its readers).
 
If the rebels were forced to fight with only the support they can get from the Syrian people the war would end quickly.

That's how it looks from here too.

Not that any of this was the point of the thread. :)
 
If Quebecers had a majority that wanted to separate, they should separate. But they don't. But if they did and the government of Canada chose to violently oppress them then I myself would support their armed struggle to free themselves from an oppressive Canada. A majority of people should never be oppressed by force.

But here's the thing, NATO isn't supporting the rebels and the whole war in Syria started when Syrian troops opened fire on Syrian protesters. You love to repeat the lies that NATO is behind this, but it's not and never was. Assad is someone no Syrian should trust and he needs to be killed. Not exiled, not arrested, killed. And the rest of his family too. Once he's gone Syria will still have problems for years, but it has no chance of recovery while Assad is around. Your idea that Syria needs a strong leader to negotiate with is just stupid. He's responsible for the deaths of thousands of civilians, if I was a Syrian I'd kill any rebel leader even considering negotiating with him. There's no going back now, one side has to win outright. And sorry Fluffy, your side will lose. Assad will be killed, Iran and Russia will lose their ally and Hezbollah will suffer greatly. Sucks to be them.
 
That's how it looks from here too.

Not that any of this was the point of the thread. :)
I think if both sides fought without any external help, this war would have ended over a year ago and Assad would be long gone.
 
If Quebecers had a majority that wanted to separate, they should separate.
If a large but vocal minority of Quebecers wanted to separate and we didn't sell our oil at reasonable rates to the right people then a large and vocal majority of Quebecers augmented by an influx of weapons through the motorbike gangs would radically destabilize Canada and then if fully backed up with a no fly zone would topple our government and allow the installation of a Hell's Angels government that WOULD be happy to hand over our oil for some personal consideration and the right to run the country as they see fit. After the initial protests of the vocal minority had been hijacked it would just be another proxy war for oil and power and even if you knew that, the media in the countries backing the proxy war would continue to tell you that the majority of the people actually want the war and that they are getting killed for their own good. It's not the only exploitable rift in our society but it is real and it could be used by hostile powers to screw us over.

If you have large crowds protesting then it only takes a few nuts with guns to turn it into a blood bath (and they don't have to be anything to do with the state and the state doesn't have to start the shooting - because all that matters is what the media says and that is easily controlled. Everything you heard about Iraq from the US media was wrong. Since then Harper has had a decade to work on our media and even the CBC falls in line these days.

But here's the thing, NATO isn't supporting the rebels and the whole war in Syria started when Syrian troops opened fire on Syrian protesters.
NATO isn't supporting the rebels yet but the US is willing to use NATO to do so. However, the US HAS been supporting the rebels and Qatar and Saudi Arabia have been supporting the rebels from day one and delisted terrorists have been in there helping the situation to get started from before day one.

Legitimate protests happened and legitimate protesters did not want war and continued to not want war after the shooting started even denouncing the armed rebels (who they already knew not to be working in their interests) but the legitimate concerns of the people is not what is being fought over. Many of the fighters are foreign (from Libya and Saudi Arabia and other nations in the area). The violence is NOT home grown. It is imported and if the Russians stopped helping Assad (he hasn't even got the weapons yet and we don't know how much intelligence assistance he is getting from the Russians) and the US and their allies (UK and France mostly plus the arab dictators) have been smuggling in small arms, large arms and been giving training, logistical support, satellite links and targeting intelligence (called "humanitarian assistance") since the beginning and even before the beginning. If both the eastern and western blocks stopped helping and only the Syrians were fighting this then it would end in a week and the Syrians would still have Assad. This is another campaign of regime change and that is all. Assad is aligned with Russia - he isn't western aligned so he has to go.

People in Bahrain are still protesting their government and have been for a couple of years now and they were shot in the street by the Saudi army who came to help the Bahrain royal family and our news media was virtually and we did not send any weapons to the protesters there to defend themselves against the army because .... well, you know why.

Assad is someone no Syrian should trust and he needs to be killed. Not exiled, not arrested, killed.
You have become a psycho. You know what happened in Iraq and how everything about it was a lie and what a disaster it has been for the people. You don't seem to have learned much from it though. Assad is not a fluffy bunny nor any great guy that I would have over to my house or anything such, but he IS better for the country and the region and his people than having western backed terrorists playing Holy War all over the country. The Christians in Syria feel betrayed by the west because it's the Christians who often get slaughtered when the "rebels" come to town. Sucks to be a Christian when the foreign Islamic Jihadis come to town to spread ... what? Freedom? No, radical Islam. That's the kind of folks being brought in to do the fighting.

Assad is winning because even some of the people that defected are going back because they have seen what the other guys are like.
 
It seems that the crux of your argument, and long winded analogies, is that the majority of the rebels fighting Assad are foreigners and not actual Syrians. Yes I know many Syrian ex-patriots have returned to fight against Assad but I don't count them as foreigners. I don't believe that is the case, nor do I believe it could be that way. Any group fighting Assad would need some level of support for mere logistical reasons, amongst many others. The Syrian born rebels have the support and even the man power, but lack the organization and the weaponry required to win such a conflict. Their lack of organization and the fact that there are well organized al-qaeda groups in the country is the main reason the rebels haven't had strong Western support and is also why I think arming them is dangerous - without a single unifying body with a single military and political objective, it's nearly impossible to tell which rebels should get the weapons and which shouldn't. But the fact that there are al-qaeda guys in the country fighting Assad isn't reason to not support non-al-qaeda Syria born rebels - and they are the majority in numbers if not in effectiveness. This is why I think a NATO no-fly zone approach may work; it will take away Assad's main advantage and allow the Syrian rebels to overwhelm his ground forces. The al-qaeda guys will eventually be purged by the Syrian rebels, and we've already seen clashes between them so there doesn't appear to be much love between them to lose.

The violence is NOT home grown. It is imported
Perhaps it is imported, but I'd blame on Assad for ordering his troops to fire on his own people. If the Russians or Iranians gave him that idea, it's still Assad's call.

As for the Russians helping Assad? You either really don't know much about Syria or you're intentionally telling us non-truths. Russia sold Assad over a billion dollars in arms in 2012. "Old contracts" said Lavrov, if you can believe that. It's the main reason (that, plus Iran, plus Hezbollah) many analysts believe Assad has made his little come back on the battlefield this past month. Assad's forces are the ones with new weapons, not the rebels. The weapons mentioned in Robert's article, the S300 anti-air missiles have NOTHING to do with the civil war (they are designed to guard against strategic bombers which makes them strategic weapons). That's a clear shot at Israel and NATO. My guess is that Putin sees the West as stumbling over what to do in Syria and that he perhaps feels that the presence of the S300's will persuade NATO away from a no-fly zone approach (indicating to me that's what Assad fears the most). I think this will fail and it will become rather obvious soon and Putin will cancel the S300s as it'll certainly draw Israel directly into the war and probably NATO as well. I think it's a bone headed move by Russia as the S300s will be easily destroyed and provide a segway into escalation - not to mention humiliation for the Russian air defense industry. So no, I don't see the S300s as significant at all at least in terms of the civil war, but to suggest that's all the Russians have supplied to Assad is a bit much. You also completely ignored weapons supplied to him by Iran and the boots on the ground supplied to him by Hezbollah. Whyzzat?

As for me being a psychopath, I'm afraid I'm just not charismatic enough for that. You however.... But that's beside the point. Assad needs to go because that's the way of the dictator. He signed his death warrant (along with many others) when he decided to take Gaddafi's strategy instead of Mubarak's. Now there's only one end for Assad and he knows it. It is you who is defending the powerful elite in this case Fluffy. Assad is the one who benefited from the brutality of his father and has chosen to continue that brutality and I imagine also plans to continue the dynasty when he grows too old to be brutal. We all know he was never elected and his rule is by no stretch of the imagination legitimate. The fact that some groups support him and that some of those groups are Christian doesn't mean much - they all benefited from his brutality because that's how it's done. The powerful elite treat the few that back them very nicely while the majority who oppose them are treated worse than animals. And it's you who are supporting this, not me. FluffyMcDeath, supporter of the rich, powerful elite, apologist for the decades old torturous and murderous regime, proponent of never ending injustice and oppression. Pretty sad.
 
It seems that the crux of your argument, and long winded analogies, is that the majority of the rebels fighting Assad are foreigners and not actual Syrians.
Ex-pats often have their own axes to grind. There are reasons why they are ex-pat. A lot of the Iranians in North Vancouver are ex-pat because they and their families were close to the Shah in some way. I'm sure they have a beef with the current administration over there. They have that luxury, of course, but the people who live in Iran are really just wanting a quiet life and will go along (and try to have their say through elections and other sorts of "free speech" - just like us).

I don't believe that is the case, nor do I believe it could be that way. Any group fighting Assad would need some level of support for mere logistical reasons, amongst many others. The Syrian born rebels have the support and even the man power, but lack the organization and the weaponry required to win such a conflict.
No, they don't have the support else they'd be winning. They also don't have the organization because the many groups disagree and many of them don't like each other and many of the largest groups don't believe in armed conflict because they are political and always have been.

Their lack of organization and the fact that there are well organized al-qaeda groups in the country is the main reason the rebels haven't had strong Western support and is also why I think arming them is dangerous -
But al-qaeda and terrorist linked groups HAVE had strong monetary and weapons support. Then we backed off and we're still looking around trying to find the strongest yet most reliable group. We had the terrorists bust the place up, now we need to drop them and find someone strong, ruthless but loyal to us to pick up the pieces. That may be tough to find.

This is why I think a NATO no-fly zone approach may work; it will take away Assad's main advantage and allow the Syrian rebels to overwhelm his ground forces.

A "no-fly zone" is a free bombing zone. In Iraq the no-fly zone was used to perpetually bomb Iraq for 10 years. Shepherds and bus drivers got blown up from time to time just so crews could return home without their munitions. The only people who didn't get bombed in the no-fly zone were the MEK (a terrorist group that no-one bothered bombing during the no-fly era but blamed Saddam for immediately before the Iraq war).

The no-fly zone in the former Yugoslavia was a zone in which NATO air power bombed whatever it felt like including hospitals and radio stations and embassies.

The no-fly zone in Libya was a zone in which NATO actively attacked the Libyan military (so that the rebels could roll up afterwards and claim victory) and NATO air forces also actively bombed hospitals, water pumps and water lines, and electrical installations. A no-fly zone mean NATO air war zone. How many times do they get to replay this before you see it? I guess you just don't ever hear about it on the channels that keep you an amped up fear jockey ready to kill, kill, kill whichever "Hitler" is threatening you and your loved ones. You are ready to cheer the death of anyone you are told is bad. You've become a paranoid Nugent in some of your posts.

Why can't we just get out, stop meddling, get our friends to stop meddling and let the Syrian people sort it out as they are quite capable of doing? All those soldiers fighting for Assad are somebodies kids. They all need food and supplies that somebody is providing. If the "people" of Syria really didn't support Assad then he wouldn't be able to do anything.
Perhaps it is imported, but I'd blame on Assad for ordering his troops to fire on his own people.
Of course it's imported. Who would blow up their own neighbourhood and their neighbours like that. Even if the troops did shoot protesters, who goes and picks up weapons and heads back out into the streets to fight the soldiers (and police)? People who don't live there and who don't depend on all of that infrastructure. People who already live outside the law or have fanatical views and people who get money for fighting. Why aren't the Greeks shooting each other in the streets? Why haven't the riot plagued inner cities of the UK started shooting up the place? No one is putting weapons into the area and no-one is hiring fighters. Bet you could if you wanted to. If you could orchestrate some mayhem and random death for a couple of months straight and throw weapons into those places you would blow them up good - but people, left to their own devices, tend to de-escalate rather than run headlong to ruin. Communities have to be manipulated into sustained violence.

end of part 1
 
As for the Russians helping Assad? You either really don't know much about Syria or you're intentionally telling us non-truths. Russia sold Assad over a billion dollars in arms in 2012. "Old contracts" said Lavrov, if you can believe that.
Really not sure what you aer getting at here. Are you trying to say that I DON'T think Russia has been helping Assad?

It's the main reason (that, plus Iran, plus Hezbollah)
Who will all get involved by necessity and then we can finally attack them all, hurrah! Just pretty much the outcome we hope for. Fuel "civil" war and let our enemies expend their resources trying to put down our "friends".

The weapons mentioned in Robert's article, the S300 anti-air missiles have NOTHING to do with the civil war
Right. So why are they such a problem for everyone? Oh, yes. They make it dangerous for our aircraft to bomb Syria. They prevent US from acting in Syria the way we believe we are entitled.

I think this will fail and it will become rather obvious soon and Putin will cancel the S300s as it'll certainly draw Israel directly into the war and probably NATO as well.

Let's say I put a fence around my house and get a dog. Is that grounds for war? Would that draw you into a war with me? What about Syria defending itself and trying to deal with its internal problem (howsoever caused) and preventing foreign powers from bombing it at will renders what they have done a hostile act?

I think it's a bone headed move by Russia as the S300s will be easily destroyed and provide a segway into escalation - not to mention humiliation for the Russian air defense industry.

Sure, I don't see why Israel would hold back from another premeditated and unprovoked act of aggression. It IS their style, just as it is the US style. What about the Syrian "civil war", if that is what it is, is any business of ours or Israel's? Assad hasn't attacked any of his neighbours, he hasn't even tried to take back the Sinai. How are the internal struggles of his people anything to do with us except that we may sympathize but by what international law (except the law of the US is the biggest so it does as it want) allows for attacking a country that is NOT attacking anyone else.

We have no right to attack Syria (and call it liberation as usual) and Syria has every right to buy and place weapons that prevent other people from attacking them. I cannot even fathom how you would think they don't. Does not every country have the right to self defense? Or is it only some countries that have a right to exist?

You also completely ignored weapons supplied to him by Iran and the boots on the ground supplied to him by Hezbollah.
Hezbollah have their hands full at the moment fending off Israel who seem to be taking potshots at Lebanon again. If Hezbollah are fighting as the rebels claim (and I guess the ever reliable French too) then they have to worry about their back. Still
As for me being a psychopath, I'm afraid I'm just not charismatic enough for that. You however....
Ah but you have the blood lust.
But that's beside the point. Assad needs to go because that's the way of the dictator.
But why not the House of Saud? Why not the Royal Family of Bahrain? Plenty of repressive regimes that we are friends with who do horrible things to their people. What's different about them? Oh, they cooperate with us - like Syria did when they helped the US to torture CIA prisoners and like Libya did when they helped us to torture CIA prisoners. Oh dear, we really do have no honour. You

It is you who is defending the powerful elite in this case Fluffy.
It is you who are killing the people of Syria. Stop doing that (or advocating for it which allows the killing) and we can get back to criticising Assad and helping the people who want him to lighten up - but we really haven't helped the Syrian people by sending guns and mercenaries. You think Iraq went well? You think Libya went well? It takes decades to recover from our brand of kindness (and we try to make it last longer). The rest of the world, the poor nations of the world and the oppressed nations of the world would all be a lot better off if we stopped trying to help.

And it's you who are supporting this, not me. FluffyMcDeath, supporter of the rich, powerful elite, apologist for the decades old torturous and murderous regime, proponent of never ending injustice and oppression. Pretty sad.
You seem to have come to believe that the gun is the way to peace and equality. Somehow so long as it's Obama killing people it will all work out for the best. You have a very pro-gun attitude for someone who doesn't like the gun. Increasing the amount of death and suffering is how we make the world better? Only if it's a black democrat advocating it, I guess.

The main difference between you and I is that you like to pick and choose when it is right to attack foreign countries that aren't attacking us and I just always say no. Not throwing gasoline on the fire is always my preferred way but you seem to be of the opinion that you can't make an omelet without breaking some eggs - when the eggs aren't yours.

So, if there was an armed insurrection against Harper - which side would you be on? Because the Majority of Canadians didn't vote for him, you realize.
 
I think if both sides fought without any external help, this war would have ended over a year ago and Assad would be long gone.


well.. one thing is for certain... for better or worse.... itd look a whole lot different than it does today... sadly,help is what both sides will get... some will call "help" arms from russia, others a nato no fly zone... "killing in the name of" no matter how you slice it... and you seem to want it both ways... and yet you're also missing the bigger picture... a good deal of folks do... the arab spring wasn't a push for democracy in the arab world,so much as it was a culling of potential terrorists... place the ideologically driven into a position to be ideologically driven and you're halfway there... you've exposed all of them and now you get to help pick and choose the ones you'll send to the ovens... CIA has been doing the "civil unrest" game for a long ass time and here we are again... old friends quaffing a brew together and moralizing over our alleged betterness...erstwhile pretending none of this is happening...

lest we forget... this is all about business...

the 1954 Guatemalan coup d’état (18–27 June 1954) was the CIA covert operation that deposed President Jacobo Árbenz Guzmán (1950–54), with a paramilitary invasion by an anti–Communist army of liberation, titled Operation PBSUCCESS. In the early 1950s, the liberal Árbenz Government had effected the socio-economic agrarian reforms of Decree 900 (27 June 1952), the national expropriation and distribution to the peasants and of the unused, prime farmlands that multinational corporations (Guatemalan and US) had set aside as reserved business assets. The Decree 900 land reform especially threatened the agricultural monopoly of the United Fruit Company (UFC), the American multinational corporation that owned 42 per cent of the arable landof Guatemala; which landholdings either had been bought by or been ceded to the UFC by the military dictatorships who had preceded the Árbenz Government (1950–54) of Guatemala. In response to the expropriation of idle farmland assets, the United Fruit Company asked the US Governments of presidents Harry Truman (1945–53) and Dwight Eisenhower (1953–61) to act diplomatically, economically, and militarily against Guatemalan President Árbenz Guzmán, which, in 1954, resulted in the Guatemalan coup d’état, that later provoked the thirty-six-year Guatemalan Civil War (1960–96), in which were killed 140,000 to 250,000 Guatemalans.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d'état
 
Why can't we just get out, stop meddling, get our friends to stop meddling and let the Syrian people sort it out as they are quite capable of doing? All those soldiers fighting for Assad are somebodies kids. They all need food and supplies that somebody is providing. If the "people" of Syria really didn't support Assad then he wouldn't be able to do anything.


and there it is...
 
Editorial from today's Guardian:
There could no more dreadful idea than to pour more armaments into the sectarian war now consuming Syria.
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Assad has not fallen. He is still there, locked in the lethal Muslim schism that resurfaced with the demise of the region's secularist dictators. These have now almost all gone: the shah in Iran, Najibullah in Afghanistan, Saddam in Iraq, Mubarak in Egypt, Gaddafi in Libya. They had faults in abundance, but they succeeded in suppressing religious discord, instilling rudimentary tolerance and keeping the region mostly in order. This was in the west's interest, and the rulers, like those in the Gulf, were supported accordingly.
Turning turtle and abetting their downfall may yet prove the most disastrous miscalculation of western diplomacy since the rise of fascism. Prior to the Iraq war, Saddam persecuted the Shias, but their shrines were safe and intermarriage was common. After the war, Sunni and Shia are torn asunder, with a death toll of ghastly proportions. Similar agony may soon be visited on the Afghans. Libya's Tripoli is more unstable now the west has toppled Gaddafi, its fundamentalist guerrillas spreading mayhem south across the Sahara to Algeria, Mali and Nigeria.
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Pouring arms into Syria will no more topple Assad or "drive him to the negotiating table" than did two years of blood-curdling sanctions. Hague knows this perfectly well, as he knows there is no way arms can be sent to "good" rebels and not to bad ones.
 
Editorial from today's Guardian:

Pouring arms into Syria will no more topple Assad or "drive him to the negotiating table" than did two years of blood-curdling sanctions. Hague knows this perfectly well, as he knows there is no way arms can be sent to "good" rebels and not to bad ones.

But it will prevent Assad from doing anything really despicable like building a pipeline to take northern Iraq oil to the Mediterranean.
 
lest we forget... this is all about business...

War is just the way we decide who gets to make the money from a certain bit of territory.

As for the middle east, we have a long history of co-opting local grievances to further our own aims. Remember Lawrence of Arabia? TE Lawrence promised the local Arabs independence for helping with the British war effort - something that his superiors were really not interested in. Much better to let the local Arabs fight for the privilege of being under the thumb of British business interests than to have British business pay to have it done.
 
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