Waterboarding isn't torture? Try it

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Republican presidential candidates Herman Cain and Michele Bachmann said at Saturday's foreign policy debate that they would renew the use of waterboarding, the controversial practice banned by President Barack Obama. "I don't see it as torture. I see it as an enhanced interrogation technique," Cain said. His comments were met with loud cheers of support from the debate audience. Bachmann, meanwhile, called the practice "very effective" and said Obama "is allowing the ACLU to run the CIA." After the debate, Romney aides told CNN that he does not believe waterboarding is torture.

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If it's torture, why have tens of thousands America military been exposed to it during their E&E training? Does that mean they now can sue the Federal Government for compensation of being tortured? I find this all rather silly when considered less then what, five people (think the number is three) have been waterboarded vs tens of thousands of US military personal being subjected to it.

And do realize that the true enemies of America are laughing over this. They do real world torture and executions, not this namby-pamby stuff. It shows them just how weak America is if they can't even do this simple use of non-lethal interrogation under strict controls.
 
Sorry Bachman torture is not effective. It has the result of the person telling you whatever you want them to tell you. Effectiveness comes with truth and therefor usefulness of the statements.

It's worth watching and learning what this event is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58
And McCain, some one who has been tortured, answers the question fairly well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjn5cKQHQg

And Dammy if the USA are to be leaders in the world we should be leading the charge. Protecting things like human rights and eliminating torture. Doing what you suggest is akin to the US agreeing to do to whatever it wants just because someone else might. IMO it's this type of Grade School logic that's bringing us down. Not torturing isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength.
 
@Dammy, US soldiers train for what the enemy might do to them. Soldiers also train to deal with chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. They are of course, also trained to deal with being captured. Your argument is overall pretty silly.

I think only some Americans think America is weak. America is not weak and the problems it currently faces are not going to weaken America all that severely. The US will remain as the super power for many years to come. Don't you worry about that.
 
Dammy said:
If it's torture, why have tens of thousands America military been exposed to it during their E&E training?
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America has prosecuted others for torture for using it against Americans.

By the way, I fully support waterboarding any and all politicians who say they support it - on live television. I think it would sell a lot of advertizing.
 
faethor said:
Sorry Bachman torture is not effective. It has the result of the person telling you whatever you want them to tell you. Effectiveness comes with truth and therefor usefulness of the statements.
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We did get confirmation of the AQ's carrier's name through waterboarding which lead to the raid on OBL. The problem with your statement is that it's false. You can certainly get someone to admit something via real world torture because you are leading the subject to the answer, getting the same information out of multiple sources via waterboarding is something else entirely. CIA/DIA have specific and methodical ways of getting information that goes through a confirmation process of multiple sources.

It's worth watching and learning what this event is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LPubUCJv58
And McCain, some one who has been tortured, answers the question fairly well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvjn5cKQHQg

And Dammy if the USA are to be leaders in the world we should be leading the charge. Protecting things like human rights and eliminating torture. Doing what you suggest is akin to the US agreeing to do to whatever it wants just because someone else might. IMO it's this type of Grade School logic that's bringing us down. Not torturing isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of strength.
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If you want to talk weakness, just look at the foreign policy over the past three years. I, for one, do not want USA to be the world's leader. Unless it has direct association with America's interest, let the rest of the world deal with it. Libya is one such example of somewhere we had zero interest in, it should have been left to the Europeans. So now that waterboarding has been stopped, can you clearly show me signs that AQ has been suitably impressed by our, ah, "strength" by stopping waterboardings? It's been three years now, where is the proof?
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
America has prosecuted others for torture for using it against Americans.
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So where is the class action law suit at on behalf of tens of thousand US military personnel who were "tortured"?

By the way, I fully support waterboarding any and all politicians who say they support it - on live television. I think it would sell a lot of advertizing.
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Whatever floats the Canadian TV market, I suppose.
 
I say we waterboard Dammy until he admits that he thinks Obama is doing a great job and that he voted for him in 2008. How long do you think that'll take?
 
Dammy said:
We did get confirmation of the AQ's carrier's name through waterboarding which lead to the raid on OBL. The problem with your statement is that it's false. You can certainly get someone to admit something via real world torture because you are leading the subject to the answer, getting the same information out of multiple sources via waterboarding is something else entirely. CIA/DIA have specific and methodical ways of getting information that goes through a confirmation process of multiple sources.
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CIA documents indicated water boarding Abu Zubayda, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, and al-Shaykh al-Libi all produced false information. Remember this -- http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/28/AR2009032802066.html?nav=hcmodule .. Yup millions of your taxpayer dollar wasted chasing false information from Abu Zubayda because water torture got out false information... So it's clearly not this mecca of truth you believe it to be.

If you want to talk weakness, just look at the foreign policy over the past three years. I, for one, do not want USA to be the world's leader. Unless it has direct association with America's interest, let the rest of the world deal with it.
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We live in a world, there's no denying that fact. As much as you might want to pull an iron curtain around the United States it's been learned that model is truly unsustainable.

Libya is one such example of somewhere we had zero interest in, it should have been left to the Europeans. So now that waterboarding has been stopped, can you clearly show me signs that AQ has been suitably impressed by our, ah, "strength" by stopping waterboardings? It's been three years now, where is the proof?
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I agree the US shouldn't be involved in everything. For example, Central America was pretty messed up and we're partially to blame. Though when we are involved we should be leading in more humane and respectiful treatments.
 
So Dammy, if I were to subject you to waterboarding if I didn't trust some information you gave me, I'd not be guilty of anything?
 
I'm reading The Black Banners: The Inside Story of 9/11 and the War Against al-Qaeda

the author is an agent in the FBI. He shows exactly how to properly interview a person and it takes intelligence, education and smarts. all qualities which the idiots who think torture works would never have.

the "trick" is to have a conversation with people and get them comfortable enough to reveal things they don't even realize they said. Do that to enough of these people and you can do what is normal in police work: put together a coherent explanation of the facts.

torture does none of that. ever
 
Glaucus said:
I say we waterboard Dammy until he admits that he thinks Obama is doing a great job and that he voted for him in 2008. How long do you think that'll take?
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I'd love to help out here.....I'm sure i would be really good at it :D
 
Glaucus said:
And it's torture only when you watch Americans play. :D
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Oct 13: Minnesota Wild beat Edmondton 2-1
Oct 20: Again Edmondton goes down 2-1
Nov 3 : Minnesota Wild beat Vancouver 5-1
Nov 8: Minnesota Wild beat Calgary 3-1

Current standings: MN #1, Edmonton #2, Vancouver #3, Calgary #5.

Yeah we torture you all right!
 
Karlos said:
So Dammy, if I were to subject you to waterboarding if I didn't trust some information you gave me, I'd not be guilty of anything?
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Depends on the conditions. If I am a enemy combatant and not wearing a military uniform (if I was wearing a uniform, then that would be covered under the Geneva Conventions) and I was a prisoner of a given government that I was attempting to do harm to, I wouldn't think you would be guilty of a crime. At least as far as US Code goes, each individual country will be different in their laws and definitions. Once you are a enemy combatant without the coverage of the Geneva War Convention (being a terrorist isn't covered as neither are spies), your SOL for nothing short of physical torture (that would leave to life time physical scars, partial disablement, or death).

Now if your were sitting in a cave with your Mullah, getting waterboard would be a joy compared to getting the Daniel Pearl treatment since I'm not of the "book" (kafir/pagan).

004.089 ​

YUSUFALI:​

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- ​

PICKTHAL:​

They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them, ​

SHAKIR:​

They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.​
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And references for beheading:​

http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/SKM40715.htm
 
faethor said:
Oct 13: Minnesota Wild beat Edmondton 2-1
Oct 20: Again Edmondton goes down 2-1
Nov 3 : Minnesota Wild beat Vancouver 5-1
Nov 8: Minnesota Wild beat Calgary 3-1

Current standings: MN #1, Edmonton #2, Vancouver #3, Calgary #5.

Yeah we torture you all right!
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Har har. Hmmm... Let's see... There's like what, 4 Americans on the Wild's roster? That's almost enough for a full line! :p
 
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