We are way past the Titanic, but not yet at Slartibartfast

FluffyMcDeath

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The rich don't just want to ride on outrageously plush liners, they want to own them and they are tres extravagant. We are not yet at Douglas Adam's Magratheans but the wealthy are at a greater height of wealth than at any time in history and maybe custom built planets aren't that far off.

and here's Slartibartfast (with Arthur) from the movie version.
[youtube:ce8ha09n]MbNtlS69HhU[/youtube:ce8ha09n]
 
As my Grandfather used to say, "Someday there's going to be a revolution".
 
Fluffy, you have the worst case of "rich envy" I've ever seen.

Just exactly how poor are you?

Maybe in reality, you are actually a rich person with a guilty conscience, sometimes referred to as "poor envy".

For someone who claims to be "not one of the super rich", you do have an uncanny ability to tell us exactly what they think. :P
 
Fade said:
Fluffy, you have the worst case of "rich envy" I've ever seen.

Just exactly how poor are you?

Poverty-wise I am among the top 10% for income in Canada. That means 90% of Canadians earn less than me. I have much more than I need (but we don't quite seem to have as much as my wife needs). Between the two of us our family income is in the top 6%. My children are in private schools. Among the other parents we are not particularly well off, but even the richest of them have wealth that tops out in the low tens of millions - somewhere up around the 99th percentile.

For someone who claims to be "not one of the super rich", you do have an uncanny ability to tell us exactly what they think. :P

My paternal grandmother came from money. She always liked to say that real money doesn't show though her grandfather was nouveau riche having built an empire during the industrial revolution. During the first world war my great grandfather made considerable money as a war profiteer being a part of the group of Northern Industrialists that courted Prime Minister David Lloyd George - and as such was also partly responsible for the introduction of daylight savings. War contracts allowed my great grandparents to move from their substantial home to an even grander home. Among my grandmother's effects when she died was a garden party invitation to one of their affairs which was signed by David Lloyd George.

On the other end of the spectrum I have lived for extended times at the poverty level, taking what odd jobs would come along and eating poorly. I have known people who died of drug overdoses, I have met and hung out with bikers and the local mafia, had friends who were kidnapped into the sex trade, worked in film and television and hung out with actors and musicians. I've met a lot of good people and bad people, industrious people and lazy people. And even though I like to think I keep my wits about me it's shock when you find yourself having to deal with a dicey situation because someone you thought was a stand up guy turns out to be a cold blooded predator. Some of those guys go to jail. Some of those guys go on to do extremely well.

Among other things I have known people who used their influence and power to help and inspire others and I have known people who use their influence and power to keep other people down so that they can't be challenged. One type, I admire, the other type would buy a shower that can spray champagne.

Damn, you've got me all nostalgic, Fade.
 
Fade said:
Fluffy, you have the worst case of "rich envy" I've ever seen.

I guess the three principle problems evidenced by Fade-like thinking:

1) A failure to understand mathematics
2) A failure to understand economics
3) A failure in awareness of reality

.1.
The failure in mathematics is that there seems to be no understanding of the difference between millions and billions and it's partly due to human psychology and the way we represent large numbers. 1,000,000 appears to be twice as big as 1,000 (when written down) and similarly 1,000,000,000 appears to be half as big again as 1,000,000. The fact is that 1,000,000 is three orders of magnitude greater than 1,000 and 1,000,000,000 is three orders of magnitude greater than 1,000,000 - the written length of the numbers only grows logarithmically and so people tend to underestimate the real size of a number. 1 millimeter (mm) is less than the thickness of a penny, 1,000 mm is 1 meter or roughly a yard, 1,000,000 mm is 1 km which can be walked in about 10 to 12 minutes and 1,000,000,000 mm is roughly the distance from my house to Eureka, Northern California.

Most people would feel pretty good if they came into a thousand unexpected dollars. They would feel great if they came into 1,000,000. But a billion dollars is a thousand times more than that and most people would have a hard time spending that kind of money.

.2.
People seem to think that the forces of economics when left to itself will cause money to naturally cycle round and round but it doesn't. The very fact that you can park a large amount of money in an investment account and have it grows shows that money accumulates to money. Once fortunes get large enough sufficient money can be attracted to provide for a nice lifestyle without doing a stroke of work (but by having other people do the work to pay back the loans) - this is indistinguishable from slavery - one person does no work simply because he owns the wealth, the owner receives the benefit of the work of the people who do not own the wealth.

With compound interest the wealth of the owner will grow exponentially. This is another failing which sits under 1), i.e. that people do not understand exponential growth and tend to underestimate it.

Once the wealth imbalance grows too large the economy cannot function efficiently, in fact it often fails to function at all. John Kenneth Galbraith recognized that this sort of wealth distribution lead to collapse and even the father of economics, Adam Smith, recognized this problem. When the poor don't have money to spend then they don't spend money. When only the rich have money to spend they also don't spend it except on things that don't have utility for the population as a whole. The utility equation means that champagne showers get made but loaves of bread don't. Once the poor aren't spending then the investments of the wealthy start to collapse because there is no longer an economy that can create the wealth to cover the loans. Adam Smith favoured that the non productive income from investment should be taxed to prevent this sort of imbalance from growing and destroying the productive economy. Modern "Conservatives" like to praise Adam Smith favour the reverse - tax the workers, give breaks to the investing classes.

.3.
People don't realize how lopsided the system currently is. The wealth distribution of the US has the profile of a third world country. The rich control an obscene amount of the wealth of the US - the wealth distribution in the US is even more lopsided than the wealth distribution in Egypt.

Have a quick read of this for some quick sketches of what the US wealth distribution looks like
 
this reminds me of a conversation I had with my mother when we talked about what's going on in Egypt. When I reminded my mom that Switzerland froze Mubarak's bank accounts she was happy and said that the money should be given to the people of Egypt by fixing up neighborhoods, homes, business loans, and so on.
I guess those fake republicans would think my mom is a socialist. But she was a republican long before those morons were born.

my mom understands what they never will: that a country is only prosperous when money moves around and the middle class is large and doing well.

I say give Mubarak's money to my mother - she knows what to do with it. and she can be trusted
 
Where does it end Fluffy?

Canada has more snow than Africa. Should Canada be forced to export, at it's own expense, it's super abundance of frozen fresh water to arid countries that have little?

It's the "New Gilded Age" of water. People don't realize how lopsided the system currently is. This sort of water distribution leads to collapse. People actually die in those countries from lack of potable water, yet Canada continues to accumulate snow with no regard for dryer people.

I know, give that extra snow to Cecilia's mom, she knows what to do with it, and she can be trusted. Canadians only use that snow for skiing anyway, but want to make slaves of the poor dry people of Africa.

Boycott Canada!
 
Fade said:
Canada has more snow than Africa. Should Canada be forced to export, at it's own expense, it's super abundance of frozen fresh water to arid countries that have little?

For a moment when I saw that you had posted to the thread I thought you might be addressing something that I had said. I see that instead you have decided to ridicule a bad analogy that you just made up. Or I may be too ungenerous in that assessment and that you actually think it is a very good analogy and I'm just not seeing it. I'd be happy if you indulge my ignorance and explain why you think it is a good analogy.

Where does it end Fluffy?

Where "it" ends, depends on what "it" is that you were talking about. If "it" is the taxation of unearned income at a high enough rate to prevent economy choking disparities, then it ends when you have enough taxation of unearned income to prevent economy choking disparities. If, on the other hand "it" means whatever the heck you feel like you want "it" to mean at any time so that you can make up another silly analogy and dance naked on it by the light of the full moon then the answer would appear to be "it" could go on forever.
 
Awe, did I rain on your parade while you were doing the usual Rich & USA bashing?

Fluffy, my glass is half full, and always has been. I don't want to take money away from my neighbor and give it to the less fortunate, no matter how rich the neighbor, or how poor the less fortunate.

If it pleases you to try and convince the world that you should have the right to do that, then go right ahead. The world's wall is harder than your head. :python:
 
Fade said:
Awe, did I rain on your parade while you were doing the usual Rich & USA bashing?

Don't worry, you haven't even been near the parade yet. You keep fleeing every time the band comes in earshot. I got to hand it to you, you're pretty good at dodging and running away.

I don't want to take money away from my neighbor and give it to the less fortunate, no matter how rich the neighbor, or how poor the less fortunate.

You don't have a problem with letting the rich take from the poor though. It's probably because you don't understand that is what's happening.

If it pleases you to try and convince the world that you should have the right to do that, then go right ahead.
We all have the right to self defense.
 
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