Why God? Why?

Wayne

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Sitting on G+ this morning, pondering the typical arguments of God, when someone called me (indirectly) an atheist, which I'm not.

In the last 2011 years and I'm sure eons before that, too many people have died in the name of God, and I just want someone (anyone) to explain religion and faith to me in a way that does NOT fall back to the circular arguments of "I believe because I have faith" (a non-answer/choice) or "I have faith because I was brought up to.." (dogma).

I realize this is probably the wrong crowd to ask. Most of you seem to have different ideals than to blindly follow a man-made religion, but hey, I want someone to answer the question while realizing that I'm not questioning their faith. I'm questioning my own.
 
Sitting on G+ this morning, pondering the typical arguments of God, when someone called me (indirectly) an atheist, which I'm not.

From what you wrote afterwards, I'm not so sure about that.

I just want someone (anyone) to explain religion and faith to me in a way that does NOT fall back to the circular arguments of "I believe because I have faith" (a non-answer/choice) or "I have faith because I was brought up to.." (dogma).

This is one of the areas where it started to fall apart for me too, albeit I was a kid at the time.
One of the reasons most people can't give a better answer is because the ones you quoted are pretty much all they have.

I want someone to answer the question while realizing that I'm not questioning their faith. I'm questioning my own.

Well, perhaps you should start by asking yourself.

For instance:
What is your faith?
What do you actually believe in?

If you can give a concise answer to either of those, the next one is obvious:
Why do you believe it?

I realise this might not be much help to you but I don't believe any of it so that's pretty much all I've got, sorry. :confused:
 
@Wayne

So you don't consider yourself Atheist? I'm a bit surprised by this unless you mean you are agnostic? I'd rather consider myself agnostic and not close the door (being closed minded).

The problems are in the modern day, we don't have miracles for proof. We don't have Jesus raising the dead in front of us. All we have is old stories that may or may not be literal history. The Catholic church taught we study the bible and must go by on faith. They also taught that the Pope spoke for God. I don't have an easy time with the whole go on faith alone thing. AFAIK all of the other main Christian religions teach that you must go on faith.

I don't do it, but I don't put those down who does. I don't feel uncomfortable going to church if needed and I certainly wouldn't go there and insult those who genuinely worship. I see no harm in Church in a general sense, unless they use the altar to preach a political message.

Can you go on faith? Sure some people do it "Because that is how they were raised", but that isn't a good reason for someone like you. Many people find comfort in religion and going on faith comes easy.
 
In the last 2011 years and I'm sure eons before that, too many people have died in the name of God, and I just want someone (anyone) to explain religion and faith to me in a way that does NOT fall back to the circular arguments of "I believe because I have faith" (a non-answer/choice) or "I have faith because I was brought up to.." (dogma).
People dying (and more importantly, killing) in the name of God is a secondary, though a powerful, effect of religious belief. Other examples of secondary effects are fear abatement. I'll get back to those sort of things but first the underlying phenomenon.

People are social. That is a very adaptive trait for animals such as ourselves who have (despite the fact that we are at 7 billion now) a low birth rate and an incredibly long pre-adult stage. It really does take a village to raise a child. We don't notice that so much these days because we feel independent when we live in our own house and make a coffee but the interdependence behind such a simple act is for the most part incomprehensible. It takes thousands of people to make that cup of coffee in your house possible. Since we are so dependent on each other we have adapted to relate strongly to other human minds. We even have ways of modelling the minds of others in our own minds so that we can try to figure out what they want, what they are thinking, whether they are deceiving us, whether they might be angry at us and how we could assuage that anger. We can form alliances and secret plots and we can detect alliances and plots against us. We are tuned to human body language and we are very good at reading facial emotive communication.

Since we dedicate so much brain power to these social functions and are so attuned to pulling hints of faces out of a noisy visual environment we often see faces in such things as clouds, burnt toast, mildew stains, though we usually know that they are not real faces. We are born to see human faces - it is that important to our survival.

Similarly we are born to detect the presence of other thinking minds and often we detect thinking minds in random noisy events of the universe where no such thinking mind exists. We talk to our cars/motorbikes/computers etc. as if they were people though we know they are not - but that doesn't stop us punching the keyboard when the stupid computer is not doing what you want or encouraging your car to keep going when you suddenly see the gas warning light come on and you're miles from home. We have a built in tendency to treat everything as if it had a mind, even the universe itself. It's natural and it feels empowering because we know how to deal with things that have minds - unlike the chaos of nature which can crush you like something less than an ant without caring nor even noticing.

It is a natural tendency, therefore, to "believe" in gods and spirits. We even recreate these "minds" we perceive in the universe in the same way we recreate the minds of people we know well and we can talk to these minds inside our heads - talk to the universe in much the same way as we talk to deceased parents and friends.

The kind of labels and rituals we attach to our "gods" depend on cultural heritage. In the same way that we have a natural tendency to language but the language we speak is the one we learn and which is also the language that everyone around you speaks. It isn't that there is a ONE TRUE LANGUAGE! You won't find a Chinese child growing up in a Chinese village suddenly one day converting to speaking German in some epiphany. Similarly you won't find a Hindu child being raised in a Hindu village suddenly have a revelation and start professing a fully formed faith in Jesus Christ. It's not that the Chinese child can't learn German, he can because he has the ability to learn language; and it's not that the Hindu child can't become a Christian, she has the innate inclination to see agency in the universe. Both language and faith are part of natural human potential but how it manifests is cultural.

Faith is just another word for trust. If you have faith in a friend then you trust them. If you have faith in God then you trust God. Belief in God or belief in your friend are already givens. If you cross a bridge you already believe that the bridge is there, but you have faith that it will hold you up as you cross over. But the bridge may collapse and that will break the faith. However, once you are lying at the bottom of the valley you may look up and realize that the bridge was never really there. Faith and trust are also normal and necessary parts of society - without it groups can't hold together and far fewer things would get done that require cooperation. Even when faith is broken we hate to give up on it entirely because it is so important to keep a group working and sometimes we will rationalize away a broken faith - "it must be because of something that I did" people will assume, and then they will try harder to make it alright again. This can drive some people to have undue faith in faithless people - such as the battered wife who is sure that her husband will become that man he should be if only she tries harder to please him.

But sometimes when your faith is broken again and again it simply means that the faith you have in someone is unjustified because the person you think they are is not the person that they are, or the person you think exists doesn't actually exist. That's the point at which some people will leave their old gods behind them realizing that, while they were a nice story to have as a child, they don't really make practical sense any more.

But now back to faith, in the religious sense, and why people kill and die for it.

The individual benefits of having faith in a god or protecting powerful spirit are that you can, for example, put aside worries over things that you cannot do anything about. You can have faith that your friend will look after those things for you. This means less wasted effort, less stress, more time to focus on the things that you can change.

There is also a benefit on the species level. Humans have spread over the planet on a certain level of fearlessness on the part of explorers. If you can trust that you will be OK then you can leave for hopefully greener pastures. A lot of the time you would become dead but some of the time a small group of people would establish a new colony. Obviously, becoming dead is bad for a person - but the trait over a number of individuals allows the individuals (and therefore the trait) to spread.

There are also benefits to the group. A group with a shared belief in a god, especially a central authority god like the father gods, can be directed en masse and controlled by a small priesthood. While there have been many famous kings and emperors through history they all kept some priests close to hand. The "god" justifies the kings position and the priests convey the kings will as though it were the god's will and while the king is a distant figure on the hill, the god is a close confidant right inside your head.

The ability to compel the unified action of many bodies gives the leader great scope in what he can do and provided that the leader is wise then the lot of the group can be radically improved (though some will have to suffer, be imprisoned, "justly" punished or killed). Further, if the fearlessness of belief is harnessed to the unquestioning obedience to a leader god then people can be directed to kill and plunder - to take to themselves the riches of others and to conquer and acquire new land thus spreading their culture and their people. Groups that can do this the best gradually take over all other groups.

There is a long history to our faiths and to the mechanism by which we have faith and the reason that we have them today is that they proved themselves useful in previous times. They remain useful even now as we can see in modern politics as waves of armies wash back and forth over the planet for God and Allah and yet, somehow, always where there is oil.
 
@Wayne

So you don't consider yourself Atheist?


He quite clearly states that he is not an atheist.

I'm a bit surprised by this unless you mean you are agnostic? I'd rather consider myself agnostic and not close the door (being closed minded).

This is to misrepresent atheism. You still seem to think atheism means a conviction that there can be no God. (Despite countless explanations on here.)
It *can* mean that but I've never met anyone who feels that way.


 
This is to misrepresent atheism. You still seem to think atheism means a conviction that there can be no God. (Despite countless explanations on here.)
It *can* mean that but I've never met anyone who feels that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities. In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Most inclusively, atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist

Yes, it means a rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
 
atheism is simply the absence of belief that any deities exist

Did you forget to read that bit?

Or do you just have a problem comprehending anything involving nuance?

Actually, that type of "selective hearing" would go a long way to explaining how you can be so obtuse on other matters too.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Yes, it means a rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
Unless you use the most inclusive definition in which case it just means not having a belief that any deities exist.
In this sense, you are an A-Quarfle-ist. You simply don't believe in Quarfle. On a basic level you have never required the explanation of "Quarfle" to make your universe make sense. If I tell you that Quarfle is what makes you get up in the morning then you may find the fact that you actually DO get up in the morning to be evidence for Quarfle. That sort of explanation and evidence may be enough to sustain your belief in Quarfle for a lifetime.

However, if you ever inquired as to the exact nature of Quarfle and I read to you from a sacred tome that Quarfle is a giant two headed goat that lives in your rectum you may come to doubt that Quarfle as described could have anything to do with you getting up in the morning or even that Quarfle doesn't make any sense at all and doesn't exist. This would make you a strong A-Quarfle-ist. You now reject the existence of Quarfle. It doesn't mean that in the entire infinite universe there couldn't be a two headed goat or even a rectum that had a goat in it - and it also doesn't mean that you don't get up in the morning or that there isn't a reason why you get up in the morning - it's just that Quarfle, as described, is nonsense and has nothing whatsoever to do with you getting up.

As to "belief", what does belief really mean. Does it simply mean "sure, OK, whatever" as in, I'll buy that for a dollar. Or does it mean "I'd bet my life on it". Is it that which you have before you question it or is it something that has survived strict tests. And is rejection of the belief in the existence of deities anything other than the belief that deities don't exist?
 
You mean there could be a two-headed goat in my rectum right now? I'm gonna go check right now...
 
You mean there could be a two-headed goat in my rectum right now? I'm gonna go check right now...
No need to check. If you got up this morning then it must be there. You just have to believe.
 
I took a good look and didn't find shit. Well, actually... Anyway, I'm sure it's there. And please, no more questions. :D
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

Yes, it means a rejection of belief in the existence of deities.
Never said that sir. Day-to-Day, I'm far more an Apathist (meaning I really don't care), but as I get older, the more it gets on my nerves when I see people that I would consider normally intelligent actively pushing their religion (and/or beliefs) on other people, or for that matter publicly promoting it.

I've even seen and known people who either lost a job, were dismissed from a job, or otherwise run off because their most personal beliefs didn't "mesh" with others.

The heart of my disdain -- hence my question -- is man-invented, man-made, and man-controlled, so-called "organized religion", but your responses bring up a good question.

Are we (as a society) (still) at the point where you can't even question faith in a generalized sense without being shouted out as an "Atheist"? Not that the word is a negative by any means, but it's almost like you're Lee's animated "Evil monkey" pointing and shouting "Atheist!!!!" as an accusation.

I mean, I'm ok with the concept of God, but I cannot put my so-called faith in men or their choice of man-made religion.

Wayne
 
Did you forget to read that bit?

Or do you just have a problem comprehending anything involving nuance?

Actually, that type of "selective hearing" would go a long way to explaining how you can be so obtuse on other matters too.

No, it just shows Robert being pedantic. Wayne asks a question, I answer with my view and you want to veer OT arguing the details over what Athiest means down to the last detail.
 
I mean, I'm ok with the concept of God, but I cannot put my so-called faith in men or their choice of man-made religion.

Sounds like you're a "something-ist". You believe in something but you're not really sure what.

This is pretty similar to me. I started out with the pretty standard (thankfully rather mild) Christianity I was taught but then I got interested in science. I remember as a kid me and my best friend used to have wonderful arguments about evolution. It always made sense to me to take the Bible as non-literal. When you do this many of the science Vs religion arguments just disappear.

When I read about the history of the Bible I wasn't shocked to find a lot of it had been added later or just made up. The original story of Jesus is quite different from the story in the Bible, there was no virgin birth or miracles and while there was a crucifixion it was "non standard", and according to one alternative gospel he wasn't even on the cross! He was just a bloke with something to say, interestingly it's pretty much the opposite of a lot of the things say in his name today.

Of course I have questioned myself because there is no proof of God, but then there is also no proof there isn't a God. So in the end I have made the choice to believe. I'm not going to go around forcing other people to believe the same thing though.

The combination of science and God may make no sense to many people, but then I'm a non conventional thinker at the best of times.

I'm also interested in UFOs and the paranormal. That is not to say I just "believe" them, I don't. I'm in the middle. I am sceptical of the believers and sceptical of the the non-believers. I am very interested in science but I am also sceptical of it, or more precisely, I'm sceptical of the absolutist bullshit you hear about it on the internet.

So, I don't know if that answers your question, but that's what I think. I believe in something, but I don't believe what organised religion says either, and neither would that person they claim to worship.

As to why religions act that way, I think that's just human nature. You've seen the Red Vs Blue wars...
 
No, it just shows Robert being pedantic. Wayne asks a question, I answer with my view and you want to veer OT arguing the details over what Athiest means down to the last detail.

It's no more pedantic than me saying everyone brought up Catholic believes the literal word of the Bible and you pointing out that's wrong.
By your definition of atheist, there are no atheist members of this website.
It's not me being pedantic.
It's just you being wrong.
 
Wayne, You are right. Questioning religion often results in being called an atheist. Add in that in polls atheists are ranked as the scarist group. This only serves to stop the conversation. Instead we should be building an understanding.
 
By your definition of atheist, there are no atheist members of this website.
eh hem.
There are no gods.
Is that an absolutely positively 100% statement? I'd say that the existence of gods is as likely as the existence of Pegasus, the flying horse. I'd say that Pegasus is so unlikely it's not unreasonable to say there is no Pegasus. The same goes for gods.
 
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