Another mass shooting

JoBBo said:
Gun control does not equal giving up weapons.
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There are quite literally thousands of gun control laws already on the books across the U.S. 99% of which are simply never enforced, either by lack of funding, or lack of initiative on the part of law enforcement personnel.

Making new laws which won't be enforced on top of existing ones is not the answer.

JoBBo said:
Do you honestly believe training is going to help 50 people in an enclosed space when they are being completely surprised by a guy carrying an assault rifle?
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Yes. I do.

It would not have lowered the count to zero, but someone nearby with the capability kill the shooter might have lowered it down to 5 or 10 rather than 100 (50 dead + 50+ injured). This pathetic, gay, militant extremist/muslim (depending on whose "news" report you follow) had time to not only empty one magazine but AT LEAST six clips (180 or more shots), meaning nearly three full minutes. Even more time if the shooter was fumbling with the weapon in the heat of the moment (as is the norm with spree shooters)..

This makes a couple of valid presumptions based on horrible previous events.

First, unless he was picking his targets carefully, several people would have been hit multiple times. One trigger pull, one shot, meaning he was probably cycling shots as fast as he could squeeze the trigger, hence some people got hit multiple times and some shots went completely astray which leads me to point 2...

Secondly, the guy was not a trained shooter, so not every shot hit a target. I would bet he hit about 1 out of every 3 shots, and some of the injuries sustained were ricochets and/or stampeding humans.

In my experience, and in my solemn opinion, a single, legally responsible CCP (Concealed Carry Permit) holder in that night club could have terminated the shooter easily within that time, meaning many, many fewer casualties or injuries.

Sadly, and very unfortunately this is a debate for which we'll never know the answer, because it appears there were no legal CCP owners in that "gun free zone" that night.

PLEASE don't get me wrong. What happened in that nightclub (and indeed ANY of these locations) is a real tragedy. I just adamantly, fervently, and solemnly believe that you CANNOT legislate your way out of such issues.
 
Wayne said:
There are quite literally thousands of gun control laws already on the books across the U.S. 99% of which are simply never enforced, either by lack of funding, or lack of initiative on the part of law enforcement personnel.

Making new laws which won't be enforced on top of existing ones is not the answer.
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In order to increase funding to improve enforcement, you would usually have to pass new laws to do so...

Also, I have yet to hear from someone who argues that a higher number of gun control laws is going to magically fix everything. The goal should be more effective regulation, which can mean fewer but easier to enforce rules.

Secondly, the guy was not a trained shooter, so not every shot hit a target.
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He was required to undergo arms training for the number of years he worked for a security company. He protected courthouses for several years, in fact.

IIn my experience, and in my solemn opinion, a single, legally responsible CCP (Concealed Carry Permit) holder in that night club could have terminated the shooter easily within that time, meaning many, many fewer casualties or injuries.
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I think you vastly overestimate how many people would react appropriately under extreme stress.

Plus, even if a real-life Rambo had been in said gay bar, there are so many variables that could have prevented him from successfully stopping the shooter within 3 minutes. It is hard to aim if you are covered under injured victims or surrounded by a panicking mob trying to find an escape route, etc.

Furthemore, there have been many similar events where shooters were ultimately overwhelmed by people without any firearms. The fact it did not happen in this case is a strong indicator that perhaps it just was not possible.
 
Wayne said:
True on all accounts. There is simply no solution for it though.
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All wars eventually come home. The US has been at war for most of the years since 1939. It has been in constant wars so far this century, and wars are expensive. Even funding them the old fashioned way (with directly created government money) is expensive. Expending resources on destroying other people's wealth means less resources to build your own wealth. When the whole boondoggle is run on privately created money it's worse. Some people get extremely rich, most people get stuck with the debt - pay-cheques get smaller, jobs are harder to get, people get grumpier, the state increases its coercive powers to keep order making people even surlier and people start to feel like they have no control over their lives. The rate of escalation of these attacks is alarming - and it doesn't seem too dissimilar to the kind of conditions that result in people blowing themselves up in crowds to make a point.
What the US needs is a higher minimum wage, good pensions, debt relief, policies to punish and take over financial institutions that scam people, strong unions and state medical. When people feel secure in their society and feel they have a role in it, they tend to be calmer. When they feel they are losing everything, every little affront hurts more.
The problem is social.
 
JoBBo said:
I think you vastly overestimate how many people would react appropriately under extreme stress.

Plus, even if a real-life Rambo had been in said gay bar, there are so many variables that could have prevented him from successfully stopping the shooter within 3 minutes. It is hard to aim if you are covered under injured victims or surrounded by a panicking mob trying to find an escape route, etc.

Furthemore, there have been many similar events where shooters were ultimately overwhelmed by people without any firearms. The fact it did not happen in this case is a strong indicator that perhaps it just was not possible.
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Possible on all counts and certainly no argument here. As I said, neither you nor I were actually there, so we will never really know. All we have is our own supposition which means we're basically discussing a point with no possible resolution.. Impossible to prove a negative.

I agree with you on the idea that we need more effective gun control measurements in place rather than simply more laws (or simply the government trying to seize all weapons -- which would result in a civil war)... I've never been against regulation of weapons. There's already tight control on true assault weapons (the AR-15 does not qualify) and I support the whole background checks thing. I always have and as an Alabama native, I've always been subject to a 3-5 day waiting period/background check for every firearm I've ever owned...

That being said, the problem is that the idea that the U.S. government can introduce ANYTHING that might even remotely approach effective is laughable.
 
I really doubt the Founding Fathers thought it would be a cool idea to allow violent, mentally ill persons such easy access to guns.

WHY is it that there's nowhere for this nut to get help for his mental problems?
People he worked with, his first wife, his second wife - ALL found him to have problems...... why isn't there a system to help all these people?

I mean, wife #2 drove him to stake out the club and she apparently was trying to convince him not to commit his crime...although I don't know how much she understood what he was planning.........WHY DIDN'T SHE CALL the flipping cops once she failed to turn him away from violence? Were there no phones in the house???

WHY was it so damn easy for him to get a gun???

Solve THAT problem and we might actually save a few lives.
 
I have a vague feeling the direction this thread is going to so I'll post this vid to settle it all:
 
It's really pretty interesting what seems to have come out so far - that the shooter was likely gay, had been to the club several times before trying to proposition men but nobody liked him 'cause he was creepy - and the footage of him as a guard working during the BP spill is interesting too for the stuff he says. Probably the Islam thing is contributory mostly because it taught him to hate himself for being gay - then gave him a horrific way to express it. Wonder what kind of virgins he thought he might get.

For now, though, Sam Harris on Orlando, Trump, Clinton & Obama
 
I find this petition hilarious - in a satirical sort of way - It was begun a few months ago but it's still very relevant. (because, 'Merica)
While I doubt the gop convention will change its stand on being "gun free" , I love the idea of having a bunch of raving lunatics roaming the convention with guns..... making all the politicians there terrified.

:lol:
 
cecilia said:
I find this petition hilarious - in a satirical sort of way - It was begun a few months ago but it's still very relevant. (because, 'Merica)
While I doubt the gop convention will change its stand on being "gun free" , I love the idea of having a bunch of raving lunatics roaming the convention with guns..... making all the politicians there terrified.

:lol:
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I thought it was Murica, not 'Merica?
 
Robert said:
Canada this time:
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FAKE NEWS: Daily Beast Falls for Quebec Mosque Attack Hoax, Blames ‘White Supremacists’

“Police said two suspects were in custody after the attack. They were identified as white supremacists “David M. J. Aurine” and “Mathieu Fornier,” according to Reuters,” wrote the Daily Beast on Sunday, unaware that their “Reuters” source was fake. “This is not the first time the mosque has suffered from a hate crime. In July, a pig’s head was left at the mosque.”

The fake account known as @ReutersBrk, which the Daily Beast sourced as “Reuters” despite the fact that it was listed as a parody account, attempted to spread the hoax that alt-right bloggers Matt Forney and Davis M.J. Aurini (both names spelled differently in the hoax) were responsible for the attack, using both of their pictures in their tweet.

https://twitter.com/x/status/825938434028077057

Of course, the truth as always is they are Muslims.

“They started to fire, and [as] they shot, they yelled, ‘Allahu akbar!’ The bullets hit people that were praying. People who were praying lost their lives. A bullet passed right over my head.”
 
Robert said:
Other than the "Allahuh Akhbar" shout, how do you know this?
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could be some Lutheran zealots yelling Allahuh Akhbar!

or more likely some mosque on mosque violence

from the facebook page of the mosque that was attacked

In it you’ll hear the imam of the mosque that was attacked discuss former members of the congregation who were unhappy with the blasphemous “moderation” of this mosque

 
metalman said:
from the facebook page of the mosque that was attacked

In it you’ll hear the imam of the mosque that was attacked discuss former members of the congregation who were unhappy with the blasphemous “moderation” of this mosque
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Yes, although there was nothing else in the linked article, I had a look myself and found this, translated from French by google, hence I edited my post:
The two alleged perpetrators of the terrorist attack at the Sainte-Foy mosque in Quebec City, which claimed the lives of six people, were Alexandre Bissonnette and Mohamed Khadir, TVA News reported.

The two suspects were arrested following the shooting at the Islamic Cultural Center in the Sainte-Foy area Sunday evening, shortly before 8 pm.
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Robert said:
Yes, although there was nothing else in the linked article, I had a look myself and found this, translated from French by google, hence I edited my post:
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canada-was-attacked-nufa9b.jpg
 
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