Mossad connection to 9/11

FluffyMcDeath

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It seems that a cousin of one of the hijackers has been a spy for Mossad for 25 years.

Now admittedly that is a slightly tenuous connection. It's similar in a way to the connection that the Bush family has with Osama bin Laden in that the Bushes are good friends with his dad.

Of course, the better Mossad connection is the five dancing Israelis on the white van who were picked up on the day and then quietly released and deported while the "moving company" they worked for spontaneously evaporated (even though they still had customers stuff) as the owner fled to Israel. All covered by Fox News, oddly enough. Which also covered the story about the Mossad agents that were tracking the hijackers around the country.
 
Palestinian Times? You gotta be kidding me. The NY Times would have been far more credible, but they don't make wild accusations that Israel was behind 9/11. Well, at least it wasn't al-Manar.

I know enough families where siblings have drastically different opinions on things that just because they're both part of the same distant family doesn't mean we should assume they are collaborators. In fact, we don't even know if the older cousin truly is guilty or just very unlucky. It's not like Hezbollah has a credible legal system - if they suspect you did something wrong they torture you until you confirm their suspicions. Even with this highly "tenuous" connection, the mountain of evidence still suggests 9/11 was purely an Arab operation.
 
Glaucus said:
Palestinian Times? You gotta be kidding me. The NY Times would have been far more credible,

Sorry. Here's the New York Times article.

Even with this highly "tenuous" connection, the mountain of evidence still suggests 9/11 was purely an Arab operation.

... with enough people knowing something about it that it should have been stopped.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
I know, I already read it, it was referred to in your first article before it went off the deep end.

[quote:218qh7nl]Even with this highly "tenuous" connection, the mountain of evidence still suggests 9/11 was purely an Arab operation.

... with enough people knowing something about it that it should have been stopped.[/quote:218qh7nl]Well that's highly debatable. And the Soviets should never have allowed a single prop private plane to fly all the way to Moscow but they did. Don't mistake incompetence for conspiracy. And if that plane had a bomb, or flew into the Kremlin, there would be endless theories about which government planned it. But maybe it was just a loon acting on his own.

The other interesting thing is that the Israel conspiracies all focus on 9/11. Why not the shoe bomber, or why liquids aren't allowed on a plane? Oh yeah, those guys were caught alive and we know where they came from and why. How about Spain? Was that Israel? London too? Who planned Mumbai? Maybe Hitler was a jew!
 
Glaucus said:
The other interesting thing is that the Israel conspiracies all focus on 9/11.

Does the mafia run Naples? Yes it does. Is it hard to believe? I don't know, maybe, but not to the people of Naples. Conspiracy? Absolutely.

What about the CIA. Think that exists? Think that it does secret things that may or may not even be legal. Think it does thinks to advance American power an influence in the world - assassinating leaders that don't cooperate, rigging elections in other countries, instigating civil unrest? Of course they do these things and the difference between covert actions like this and conspiracy is one is policy and the other is ... exactly the same but not done by a government.

Does the Mossad not exist? If no Mossad, then who mistakenly murdered a waiter in Lillehammer in 1973? Who tried to assassinate Khalid Mishal in Amman in 1997 by putting poison in his ear while posing as Canadians. We know about these because a) they were botched, b) they happened in countries not willing to sweep stuff under the rug. The Canadian government was only too willing to hush up the counterfeit passports used in the latter affair, but the New Zealand government was quite vocal when the Mossad tried to acquire New Zealand passports.

Seriously, every country runs covert operations which are for all practical purposes the same thing as conspiracies. They engineer environments and events for gain. Why should Israel not have such organizations and do such things? Are they angels or something?
 
Fluffy, of course conspiracies exist, as does the Mossad which is one of the most notorious intelligence agencies in the world. And no, Israelis are not angels. I'm not even saying that they are not capable of 9/11, they are. I'm just saying it wasn't them, and I say that because the evidence doesn't point to them. I think the only way you can seriously believe Israel was behind 9/11 is if you happen to be predisposed against Israel and actively seek out evil acts to blame them for. Remember how we accused the Bush administration of cherry picking evidence to support the invasion of Iraq? Well it's the same here for blaming Israel for 9/11. to believe Israel was involved you need to focus on a small subset of evidence often from dubious sources. It really all started when al-manar broadcast that Israeli intelligence agents called all Jews who worked at the World Trade Center and told them to stay home that day. The fact that this was reported on 9/18, 2001 should have tipped most people that this couldn't possibly be true as no one at the time had a reliable list of who died and who survived. But people believed this even after it became clear that many Jews DID go to work that day. But why let facts ruin a perfectly good conspiracy theory, right? Fact is, by going over the victims list it turns out that there were at least 400 Jews that died in the WTC. Interestingly, I've read that only 8 Russians died in the WTC. Was it perhaps a Russian conspiracy? Probably not.

And for what little evidence there is pointing to Israel, have you even considered that maybe al-Qaeda tried to frame Israel for it? Is that not possible? Why don't I hear that? Why would Israelis dance around when planes are flying into the trade center? Maybe al-Qaeda paid them off. Seems as likely that Israel could have paid off Arabs to fly into the WTC.

And why would Israel make such a plot? The only viable explanation I've heard so far is to bring the US into a war against Saddam. Sounds plausible. Until of course you realize that there was absolutely no link between Saddam and 9/11. At the time it was widely believed that Saddam and al-Qaeda were mortal enemies. For Israel to plot 9/11 they'd need to go out of their way to paint Saddam as the mastermind. Instead they concocted a plot that made it totally clear he wasn't involved at all. The only evidence that there ever was a meeting between 9/11 operatives and Saddam's intelligence was highly dubious to say the least and even President Bush openly admitted there was no link to Saddam. To me this is an important fact and a major stumbling block for me to give the Israeli 9/11 conspiracy any serious consideration. If the Israelis planned 9/11, they would have blamed Saddam right off the bat.

But lets get back to the original article here. We have an older uncle who has been arrested for espionage. Ok, let's say he's guilty. The reasons given imply that Israel paid him handsomely for the intel. So basically he betrayed his country out of greed. Sure, I can buy that, it's quite common. But where it gets a little fishy is that somehow his cousin was recruited by Israel to fly into the WTC. In such a case, greed couldn't be the motivator as money is of little use when you willingly obliterate yourself. In fact, I can't think of any case where anyone willingly died to help the cause of a foreign government that is enemies of your people. Sure, there are Arabs who'd be willing to work with the Israelis for a number of reasons. Perhaps Hezbollah murdered your brother and you want to get back at them. The Israelis may be your best option. But is flying a plane into the WTC gonna give you the satisfaction of payback? Hardly. At the most extreme I'd expect a Lebanese to provide Israel with targeting data on a specific Hezbollah operative. Flying into the WTC for Israel just doesn't add up. It's so much of a stretch that you really can't use it as evidence to support the theory that Israel was behind 9/11.

All evidence points to 9/11 being purely an Arab conspiracy.

Anyway, I gotta get back to work!
 
The only connection I could believe plausible between Mossad and the WTC attack is the same one I believe about the Bush regime:
Were they behind it? Don't be ridiculous.
Did they benefit from it? Absolutely.
Did they know a lot more about it than they let on? Almost certainly.
Could they have done more to prevent it? Very probably.
Was this by choice or incompetence? Who knows.
 
Robert said:
The only connection I could believe plausible between Mossad and the WTC attack is the same one I believe about the Bush regime:
A. [\b]Were they behind it? Don't be ridiculous.
B. [\b]Did they benefit from it? Absolutely.
C. [\b]Did they know a lot more about it than they let on? Almost certainly.
D. [\b]Could they have done more to prevent it? Very probably.
E. [\b]Was this by choice or incompetence? Who knows.

Here's my take:
A. Where they behind it? Possibly, but I'd need to see serious evidence to consider it. Until then I agree with you, it's rather ridiculous.
B. Did they benefit? Sure they did by getting rid of Saddam. But so did Iran which now has, by proxy, control over most of Iraq thanks to the US invasion. Also, the US war machine is battered and tired and the last thing America wants now is an expanded regional war. Sounds like a win-win situation for Iran as they continue to defy nuclear proliferation agreements. In this light it seems like a major step backwards for Israel as their arch rival may soon be joining the nuclear club.
C. Did they know a lot more about it than they let on? Considering there's no real evidence to suggest that they knew it all, it's hard for me to understand why anyone would believe they did. The Mossad is good at many things, but they have so far failed to prevent countless bomb attacks by Palestinians, Palestinian tunnels out of Gaza, Palestinian rocket attacks and completely mis-analyzed the capabilities of Hezbollah. Mossad is typically best at brute force operations where Arabs get killed, their intel gathering isn't necessarily the most revered part of the organization. Despite that, officially we know that there were clues that something was in the works, but no one was sure of what, whenm how or who. I'd imagine most cold-war era intelligence agencies would be ill equipped at infiltrating highly decentralized terrorist networks scattered around the globe.
D. Could they have done more to prevent it? Not sure it was up to Israelis to prevent it. The US could have done a lot more though. Better immigration policing and better airport and in-flight security could have easily thwarted the operation. But all of these were lax for decades, making it hard to pin on the Bush administration. Sure Richard Clark stated that al-Qaeda was ready to attack the US, but this wasn't news as al-Qaeda had made several failed attempts before (1993 WTC bombing, and the foiled millennium attacks). If anything, the Clinton administration should have upped the ante against the terrorists and perhaps responded more forcefully after the USS Cole attack. But this does bring up an interesting point. If the Clinton administration was as lax as the Bush administration, was Clinton also willingly lowering security standards to allow a successful attack? And how can we explain the foiled millennium attacks? Why stop those and allow 9/11? Answers anyone?
E. Was this by choice or incompetence? I think the correct answer here is incompetence. Even if it were by choice, it was a bad choice overall. The ensuing shit storm only galvanized the Islamists, and even though Saddam is out of the picture, anti-Americanism and anti-zionism is at all time highs. That plus Iraq is now a live ammo training ground, with enough poverty and hate going around to ensure that there will be no end to terror and bloodshed anytime soon. And although I feel that Obama has no choice, when he pulls troops out of Iraq it will most likely free fall into civil war where the shia majority will eventually take full control. I don't know about you, but I'd say that's full-on incompetence.
 
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