The EU, Turkey and Danish cartoons

[Glaucus]

The EU’s Turkey test

Who would have thought in the years since 2005, when much of the Muslim world erupted in fury over a Danish newspaper’s publication of cartoons lampooning the Prophet Muhammad, that this facile experiment would set off a chain reaction that would undermine the Western world’s values of free speech and tolerance? And yet, after a four-year hiatus, the cartoon furor is back – this time not as farce but as tragedy.

Well, Obama's foreign policy gets a big thumbs down from me on this one.

 

[Glaucus]

Kinda touches on the above, but also talks about the Armenian genocide and how Turkey would rather we forget about it. Hopefully Obama will keep this campaign promise.

Telling the Truth About the Armenian Genocide

Even before President Barack Obama set off on his visit to Turkey this week, there were the usual voices urging him to dilute the principled position that he has so far taken on the Armenian genocide. April is the month in which the Armenian diaspora commemorates the bloody initiation, in 1915, of the Ottoman Empire's campaign to erase its Armenian population. The marking of the occasion takes two forms: Armenian Remembrance Day, on April 24, and the annual attempt to persuade Congress to name that day as one that abandons weasel wording and officially calls the episode by its right name, which is the word I used above.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Something else I read about Turkey recently - since the latest attack on the people of Gaza and the subsequent insulting of Erdagon by Israel, Turkey has suddenly become very cooperative with Palestinians fighting land claims. It seems that many Israelis (and here we really mean Jews because it is Jews who have been doing this) forge deeds purporting to be from the time of the Ottoman Empire to make legal claims against properties owned by Palestinians. Turkey still retains the land records from the Ottoman empire and has been pulling out the old deeds threatening to collapse these swindles. Ouch. Well, that's what you get for thinking you don't need to return any kindness to a faithful ally.

 

[smithy]

The EU’s Turkey test

If the EU now chooses to dilute its principles in order to appease Turkey (and its backers in the United States and Britain), then the current leader of the EU will have managed to destroy the most democratic, the most just, the most progressive social, political and economic experiment the world has seen. That seems a monumental and unforgivable loss for the sake of very short-term gains

The EU, the most democratic experiment the world has seen??! Ridiculous. It's the always people who understand the EU least that are most likely to praise it. Worryingly, Obama is also one of these people. He seems to support a federalist takeover of European democracies. The Czech president, Vaclav Klaus, recently highlighted the parallels between the EU and the old Soviet bloc. He should know.

 

[Glaucus]

I bit off topic and not the sort of thing the author probably intended to be a provocative statement. Compared to Turkey however, the EU is light years ahead in terms on democracy and human rights. The main premise of the article had more to do with Europe (and the US) losing freedom of speech out of fear, which Turkey is all to happy to exploit.

 

[smithy]

I bit off topic and not the sort of thing the author probably intended to be a provocative statement. Compared to Turkey however, the EU is light years ahead in terms on democracy and human rights. The main premise of the article had more to do with Europe (and the US) losing freedom of speech out of fear, which Turkey is all to happy to exploit.

There is nothing new about the EU self-censoring belief in its own beliefs to appease those who have incompatible views. Or indeed, western countries doing similar things.

However, in this case I don't think the EU has done anything like that. I think the author is over-making his case.

On Rasmussen, the author suggests Turkey would have been persuaded to change its mind. Rather than persuade, the EU typically bakes some fudge to get its way. In this case, Rasmussen has promised to appoint some Turkish Generals and will make some Turkish-friendly speeches. Meaningless gestures - a classic European fudge.

On accession to the EU, I think this is a bit of a red-herring. American presidents regularly nudge the EU with a "go on, let 'em in" about some country that is a million miles from being an appropriate member but is deemed important to the US. France and Germany still oppose Turkish membership, as they always have. In Turkey the appetite for membership is wavering, although all the main political parties still officially support it, there isn't the fervour that was there a few years ago. I think again, there is no real change here.

On Cyprus, I think Turkey has some valid points, but that's a bigger issue and I don't see that it's down to EU surrendering any of its beliefs.

 

[Glaucus]

I bit off topic and not the sort of thing the author probably intended to be a provocative statement. Compared to Turkey however, the EU is light years ahead in terms on democracy and human rights. The main premise of the article had more to do with Europe (and the US) losing freedom of speech out of fear, which Turkey is all to happy to exploit.

There is nothing new about the EU self-censoring belief in its own beliefs to appease those who have incompatible views. Or indeed, western countries doing similar things.

However, in this case I don't think the EU has done anything like that. I think the author is over-making his case.

I think you're over playing it down. Turkey is a non-EU country that wants to become one. The EU has all the cards, it's Turkey that needs to bend over backwards. Instead we see Turkey placing pressure on the EU and the US and coming out ahead. You can easily play down the appointment of Turkish generals, but you don't live under Turkey's military shadow. But I digress as the article is about how the EU had to concede to Turkey over something that should have been a non-issue. Unfortunately this makes it into one as we see that the BBC is suppressing an interview with one of the cartoonists for fear of upsetting Muslims. One must wonder did they not consider this before the interview? Perhaps someone "suggested" to the BBC not to shake things up lest their public funding gets cut?

On accession to the EU, I think this is a bit of a red-herring. American presidents regularly nudge the EU with a "go on, let 'em in" about some country that is a million miles from being an appropriate member but is deemed important to the US.

The US involvement is more complex then that. The US isn't interested in a strong EU and they know the best way to weaken it is to encourage rapid growth, especially with countries of varying economic success and even culture. But Turkey in particular gets special treatment from the US, as does Israel. Their strategic location coupled with their military vastness has always granted them special status within NATO and this is the main reason why Greece can't take NATO seriously. There's not a Greek alive who'd ever expect NATO to come to it's aid if Turkey were to invade. NATO understands this, and Clinton knew exactly why Greeks rioted in the streets when he visited, but they don't care. Turkey is important, where as Greece and freedom of speech are not so much.

 

[smithy]

[quote="Glaucus]I think you're over playing it down. Turkey is a non-EU country that wants to become one. The EU has all the cards, it's Turkey that needs to bend over backwards. Instead we see Turkey placing pressure on the EU and the US and coming out ahead. You can easily play down the appointment of Turkish generals, but you don't live under Turkey's military shadow.
[/quote]

Turkey is strategically important whereas Greece isn't. Because of this, Turkey has some leverage with the US, and has used it.

But I digress as the article is about how the EU had to concede to Turkey over something that should have been a non-issue. Unfortunately this makes it into one as we see that the BBC is suppressing an interview with one of the cartoonists for fear of upsetting Muslims. One must wonder did they not consider this before the interview? Perhaps someone "suggested" to the BBC not to shake things up lest their public funding gets cut?

Nothing to do with funding. This is type of self-censorship is typical of the BBC and is nothing new.

I don't think Turkey will ever get EU membership. Although it often pretends to be like a European liberal democracy, it sometimes seems to lurch back to the middle ages with restrictive Islamic laws. As if by instinct when it forgets to act nicely.

[quote:1dvn436y]On accession to the EU, I think this is a bit of a red-herring. American presidents regularly nudge the EU with a "go on, let 'em in" about some country that is a million miles from being an appropriate member but is deemed important to the US.

The US involvement is more complex then that. The US isn't interested in a strong EU and they know the best way to weaken it is to encourage rapid growth, especially with countries of varying economic success and even culture. But Turkey in particular gets special treatment from the US, as does Israel. Their strategic location coupled with their military vastness has always granted them special status within NATO and this is the main reason why Greece can't take NATO seriously. There's not a Greek alive who'd ever expect NATO to come to it's aid if Turkey were to invade. NATO understands this, and Clinton knew exactly why Greeks rioted in the streets when he visited, but they don't care. Turkey is important, where as Greece and freedom of speech are not so much.[/quote:1dvn436y]

The US has never really understood what the EU is. They seem to think it's some kind of country club. It's an integration project designed to create a single state. One of the reasons it's feasible because Europeans share the same ideals and culture. Turkey does not have a European outlook which is why France and Germany are opposed to Turkey's entry.

I can't see any circumstances that Turkey would invade Greece? Do you think that Turkey is a military threat to Greece? Isn't this article (written by a Greek?) just a continuation of the usual Greek-Turkish sniping?