Anyone have experience with a drobo?

[Wayne]

Hi guys,

As someone who's running out of space while converting his DVD collection, I ran across the "drobo", which is a USB2/FW800, 4-bay, hot-swappable "RAID-like" device that you can use mix and match 3.5" SATA drives with.

Here's their demo, which makes the whole thing look pretty cool (obviously). The reviews on the current unit seem outstanding, and everyone who voices public opinion seems to love it.

[youtube:1r28lqza]05yqvb5n36M[/youtube:1r28lqza]

Here's the rub.

I have a good number of Best Buy rewards cards (about $150 worth) and the potential to buy one of these beasties for pretty darned cheap. I already have a few drives to go in it, but the one thing that bothers me, or rather said, concerns me is that in acting "raid-like" (it does it's own thing so it's not a strictly RAID device), you essentially give up one drive's worth of capacity (or more) for data redundancy.

I realize that's EXACTLY what you end up doing with something like a RAID-5 array, but the thought of putting in (4x) 2 terabyte drives and ending up with slightly less than 6tb usable seems an awful waste.

Anyone here heard of them, got experience with one, or know anyone who does?

Wayne

 

[ilwrath]

The only real advantage of using this appears that it's just easy to configure for drives of varying sizes. Really, though, why not just configure an actual RAID or JBOD? Then you can set up as much/little redundancy as you want. Personally, I just run RAID0 and keep a backup of the stuff I don't want to lose (family photos, documents, etc.) The rest? Well, they're fairly new Seagate drives on a decent controller... I'll roll the dice.

 

[Glaucus]

I noticed that the Drobo supports a number of different file systems, including NTFS. This leads me to believe that it's probably using Windows Home Server. WHS has some built in drive extending mechanisms that you may or may not want (interestingly, MS has totally removed the drive extender from the next, yet-to-be-release version of WHS, which many people considered the only real reason to getting WHS in the first place). Anyway, that's something you may want to research.

And I tend to agree with ilwrath. Buying a cheap Atom CPU/Motherboard combo with some ram and a few really big drives and throwing them all into an old case with PSU is probably about the same cost (of course, I tend to just pirate my copies of XP, but linux should work just as nicely as a file server).

My worry about exotic or proprietary hard drive solutions is that if, say, the Drobo itself pukes then how do you recover the data? if it uses some kind of weird BeyondRAID system then you'd need to find another controller that can read that, which is likely going to mean you'll be forced to buy another Drobo. Which hopefully never goes out of business.

 

[faethor]

My worry about exotic or proprietary hard drive solutions is that if, say, the Drobo itself pukes then how do you recover the data?

RAID, of any sort, is no replacement for a well executed and tested backup and recovery strategy.

@WAYNE
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/ is generally a good site to start looking for a NAS/SAN sort of device for the home network.

 

[Glaucus]

My worry about exotic or proprietary hard drive solutions is that if, say, the Drobo itself pukes then how do you recover the data?

RAID, of any sort, is no replacement for a well executed and tested backup and recovery strategy.

this is true, but I categorize data into two groups: critical and expendable. my music archive is expendable because it's already "backed up" on CD somewhere. If that drive goes, I can just re-rip those CDs. However, there's other things that are harder to replace, like my digital photos. Those I backup on Google Picasa, and any other misc files go to Google Docs. For $5 a year I get 20GB (plus we all get 1 free GB just for registering) that I can do whatever with. Need net access of course, but it's always there and pretty darned safe. As for Wayne, he seems to be using it for storing movies, which I presume are also "backed up" on a DVD/Bluray somewhere.

 

[faethor]

My worry about exotic or proprietary hard drive solutions is that if, say, the Drobo itself pukes then how do you recover the data?

RAID, of any sort, is no replacement for a well executed and tested backup and recovery strategy.

this is true, but I categorize data into two groups: critical and expendable. my music archive is expendable because it's already "backed up" on CD somewhere. If that drive goes, I can just re-rip those CDs. However, there's other things that are harder to replace, like my digital photos. Those I backup on Google Picasa, and any other misc files go to Google Docs.

Umm isn't that your backup and recovery plan? So if the 'Drobo' pukes you'd recover the data in the same way you would to any other device. Replace and restore from your backup sources CD, Picasa, and Google Docs. Am I missing something in your question?

Drobo seems to be a device that's supposed to be simple to use. A good idea for the general consumer to have a 'virtual drive' device that just works. For Wayne I'd recommend something more hands on. It'll give better data performance and the new web interfaces are snap to use. If he wants to stick at Best Buy I think they sell the Seagate Black Armor NAS.

 

[Wayne]

Umm isn't that your backup and recovery plan? So if the 'Drobo' pukes you'd recover the data in the same way you would to any other device. Replace and restore from your backup sources CD, Picasa, and Google Docs. Am I missing something in your question?

The thing that gets me is that I -- like everyone else here -- suck at backups and I have currently 2.29 Terabytes of data which would be pretty difficult to back up elsewhere. The drobo on the other hand, if I'm willing to sacrifice drive space, can reportedly withstand 2 complete failures and still keep running without a twitch. My only concern is that it would friggin suck to buy 8 tb worth of drives and only have 5.7 tb of usable space. With the larger Drobo Elite unit, 8 drives, 16tb, only 10tb usable. You get the picture.

I thought about building a basic throwaway box, and it's still a possibility, except for the need for a RAID card. I haven't done much, if any research into PC RAID cards in the last, oh, I dunno, 20 years, but as I recall, they would probably cost as much as the basic throwaway box to begin with. Not to mention buying a case large enough to fit more than 4 drives is more expensive than I want to deal with. That being said, there's always the factor of the BB reward cards, which BB can't bitch about price matching if I go in and buy a base model machine to cannibalize as a file server...

Something to think about though. Seriously.

Never thought I'd be able to say that I have "2.29 Terabytes of data" on hard drives, but I do. Turns out, all ripped to .m4v/.mp4 at a decent rate, that I literally own over a thousand movies and TV shows on DVD. (Counting individual TV show episodes separately of course).

Does Basic Windows 7 (or Vista) handle RAID cards? You know how it gripes my butt to actually have to give Microsoft money in any way...

Wayne

 

[faethor]

Umm isn't that your backup and recovery plan? So if the 'Drobo' pukes you'd recover the data in the same way you would to any other device. Replace and restore from your backup sources CD, Picasa, and Google Docs. Am I missing something in your question?

The thing that gets me is that I -- like everyone else here -- suck at backups and I have currently 2.29 Terabytes of data which would be pretty difficult to back up elsewhere.

I agree. I've mostly dumped a backup strategy at home. The unreplaceable pictures and movies are the only items I backup. Otherwise I just expect to reinstall. For RAID I'm good with a mirrored 1TB drive set. I can do that on the Motherboard.

The drobo on the other hand, if I'm willing to sacrifice drive space, can reportedly withstand 2 complete failures and still keep running without a twitch. My only concern is that it would friggin suck to buy 8 tb worth of drives and only have 5.7 tb of usable space. With the larger Drobo Elite unit, 8 drives, 16tb, only 10tb usable. You get the picture.

RAID always loses at least 1 drive. RAID-3/RAID-5 with 4 2TB drives would give you a theretical 6TB of space. Of course you don't want to fill drives to 100% so about 5.5TB of usable space. And this would only sustain a single failure. BTW checking the Drobo Datasheet they indicate 5.5TB usable space out of 8TB too.

Can the Drobo really sustain 2 drive failures on a 4 drive RAID? The only way I'd think this would be possible would be compressing data on the fly so it's smaller. That way multiple copies could be kept on all drives. Speed would be a big hit. Which may be as the Drobo isn't very fast, compared to other RAID Devices.

If that 2+TB is important even on RAID I'd not give up some form of backup. 3TB External drives can be had for under $200.

I thought about building a basic throwaway box, and it's still a possibility, except for the need for a RAID card. I haven't done much, if any research into PC RAID cards in the last, oh, I dunno, 20 years, but as I recall, they would probably cost as much as the basic throwaway box to begin with. Not to mention buying a case large enough to fit more than 4 drives is more expensive than I want to deal with. That being said, there's always the factor of the BB reward cards, which BB can't bitch about price matching if I go in and buy a base model machine to cannibalize as a file server...

To add to the confusion you could do 4 external USB Drives and do Raid across them in software. It'd be ugly but should work.

Does Basic Windows 7 (or Vista) handle RAID cards? You know how it gripes my butt to actually have to give Microsoft money in any way...

Not sure. My RAID 1 is on the motherboard. It's configured in BIOS and the OS (Win7 premium) sees it as a single drive.

 

[Wayne]

Can the Drobo really sustain 2 drive failures on a 4 drive RAID?

"Supposedly" is all I can say. There is a trade show demo on youtube where a guy starts a movie from the drobo drive (3 disks) then removes 2 disks and it keeps right on chugging. *I* however can't verify the particulars of the demo.

To add to the confusion you could do 4 external USB Drives and do Raid across them in software. It'd be ugly but should work.

Right now, I have two 2TB WD Elite Externals (with the fancy displays) run to the USB hub and striped in MacOS X at the software level. I would hate to curse myself, but it seems to be ok for the moment. If nothing else, what I should do when they come on sale again is to buy at least two more and build another raid stripe to use with Time Machine. Slow, but again, while these aren't family pictures or anything, it has taken me probably 2000 hours of my life to create all of these .mp4's. Well, 2000 hours of computer time while I'm swapping out discs regularly, but all the same. It'd be a true PITA to replicate in case of failure.

Best Buy won't price match their "online only sale" of drobo (they're retail at $399, even though others are as low as $315) because the other stores "aren't local". This amazes me because here they are claiming they will price match anyone with a lower price, BUT they "don't pricematch their own products which are only available through the web site with other online retailers".... HUH? WTF.. over.

Anyway, the gist of that is that -- in at least this regard -- Best Buy sucks, and I will just have to keep searching for another Drobo on sale on Amazon (as it was on Tuesday for $215) and bite the bullet if I decide to go that route.

Thinking about it more and more, this array I have seems to be working ok, and I have nothing to suggest that it will have a problem, The "sacrifice" of an additional drive for the potential security of the data seems like more and more of a good idea, considering the sheer amount of data and work it would take to recreate it.

Right now, I could technically get one more $89 2tb drive (or one 3tb drive would be better) to use as a backup drive and that should be fine.

It's later on, after I find work and near the 4tb mark that I guess I'm thinking about. "What comes next"?? Hopefully by the time I'm ready to move, 3tb drives will be down around $89 and ebay drobos at the 150-200 mark will be plentiful.

Not sure. My RAID 1 is on the motherboard. It's configured in BIOS and the OS (Win7 premium) sees it as a single drive.

Good to know. Thanks.

Wayne

 

[Glaucus]

Umm isn't that your backup and recovery plan? So if the 'Drobo' pukes you'd recover the data in the same way you would to any other device. Replace and restore from your backup sources CD, Picasa, and Google Docs. Am I missing something in your question?

Well, it's like 8TB or so of data. If your drives are good and it's your Drobo that died, I'd really hate to have to restore all that data the hard way.

 

[faethor]

Umm isn't that your backup and recovery plan? So if the 'Drobo' pukes you'd recover the data in the same way you would to any other device. Replace and restore from your backup sources CD, Picasa, and Google Docs. Am I missing something in your question?

Well, it's like 8TB or so of data. If your drives are good and it's your Drobo that died, I'd really hate to have to restore all that data the hard way.

Isn't the Drobo like any RAID device? Insert the good drives into a new RAID device from the same manufacturer and bios versions (in this case a new Drobo), and assuming it didn't corrupt data before the crash, you're up and running?

 

[Wayne]

Isn't the Drobo like any RAID device? Insert the good drives into a new RAID device from the same manufacturer and bios versions (in this case a new Drobo), and assuming it didn't corrupt data before the crash, you're up and running?

I know the drobo is supposed to allow you to mix and match drives, but theoretically you may be right. If the data is ok, you should just be able to insert them into a new Drobo. What I just don't know is whether or not the drobo's internal workings say "if ANY drive is inserted, first rule of business is to format it".

Something to ask them before buying I'd think.

Wayne

 

[Glaucus]

Umm isn't that your backup and recovery plan? So if the 'Drobo' pukes you'd recover the data in the same way you would to any other device. Replace and restore from your backup sources CD, Picasa, and Google Docs. Am I missing something in your question?

Well, it's like 8TB or so of data. If your drives are good and it's your Drobo that died, I'd really hate to have to restore all that data the hard way.

Isn't the Drobo like any RAID device? Insert the good drives into a new RAID device from the same manufacturer and bios versions (in this case a new Drobo), and assuming it didn't corrupt data before the crash, you're up and running?

I honestly never used a RAID configuration, but I always thought RAID was some kind of standard that would allow you to switch controllers. But you bring up a good point, that RAID is probably implementation specific to each card. So if your RAID card dies you'd probably need to replace it with an identical card. If true, that kinda sucks.

 

[faethor]

know the drobo is supposed to allow you to mix and match drives, but theoretically you may be right. If the data is ok, you should just be able to insert them into a new Drobo. What I just don't know is whether or not the drobo's internal workings say "if ANY drive is inserted, first rule of business is to format it".

Good question. Drobo literature indicates that removed drives can be replaced in any order.

I honestly never used a RAID configuration, but I always thought RAID was some kind of standard that would allow you to switch controllers. But you bring up a good point, that RAID is probably implementation specific to each card. So if your RAID card dies you'd probably need to replace it with an identical card. If true, that kinda sucks.

RAID (1/3/5/6/1+0/0+1/etc.) does have standard definitions but how each manufacture implements this can be different and incompatible with each other. RAID Controllers write a RAID table to the drives. AFAIK each RAID table is individual to the manufacturer and can be different between different hardware within a single manufacture. If you don't have the same model of RAID Controller you'll should have a controller that's backwards compatible and setup the same software in the device that you used before. Incompatible controllers and you will need to rebuild the RAIDset and load the data per your recovery plan.

"RAID-0" isn't a true RAID as it's not Redundant.. (Such as iWrath mentioned) RAID-0 strips the data across 2 drives and provides no redundancy. The PRO is you receive improved data performance. The CON is 1 drive loses all your data. Essentially this configuration doubles your chances of data loss upon failure. Good for high throughput needs but at the risk of data integrity.

 

[Glaucus]

Ya, I knew most of that stuff about RAID, but I guess I made the assumption that all RAID devices used the same format for the "RAID table". In which case the Drobo is on par in that regard. So a big NEVERMIND.

 

[faethor]

Wayne,

I thought this might be a useful item for a DIY RAID solution. ICY Dock RAID Cage. It puts 4 drives in a 5.25" enclosure. This would get them accessible and into your tower and take up about the same space a DVD device.

 

[Wayne]

Wayne,

I thought this might be a useful item for a DIY RAID solution. ICY Dock RAID Cage. It puts 4 drives in a 5.25" enclosure. This would get them accessible and into your tower and take up about the same space a DVD device.

That's very cool, and I could use something similar, were it not for the fact that I don't have SATA connections on the iMac. Now, if you could find something like that that did FW800, we'd be in business.

Wayne

 

[Robert]

Wayne,

I thought this might be a useful item for a DIY RAID solution. ICY Dock RAID Cage. It puts 4 drives in a 5.25" enclosure. This would get them accessible and into your tower and take up about the same space a DVD device.

Now that I like.

 

[redrumloa]

Wayne,

I thought this might be a useful item for a DIY RAID solution. ICY Dock RAID Cage. It puts 4 drives in a 5.25" enclosure. This would get them accessible and into your tower and take up about the same space a DVD device.

I'd be worried about heat with that thing. Yes it has cooling fans, but there is no room for air flow.

Besides, no available free 5.25 slots on an iMac :wink:

 

[Glaucus]

It's neat but it also limits you to the more expensive, and often smaller capacity, 2.5" drives. It's nice but you may end up paying more in the end due to the extra cost of the drives. The Drobo takes 3.5" drives.