First flight of X-47B unmanned aircraft demonstrator in cruise mode

[FluffyMcDeath]

Yeah, the office drones are really oppressing people. The IT guys. The poor bastards that sell your life insurance policies. Yep. You're arguing that they're really legitimate targets?? Seriously? And that is completely ignoring the passengers on the planes.

You can't get out of your own viewpoint, can you? Yes, a lot of "little" people died. For some reason many of the big wigs seemed to have something better to do that day but that's what being a bigwig is all about. But the Bush standard of innocence was pretty high. If you even lived in a country that was "harbouring terrorists" then you were guilty.

When you get a bomb dropped on your house, is the pilot innocent because he did know it was you that owned the house? Is the guy that loaded the bombs innocent? Are the people that transported the bombs innocent? Are the people that built the bombs innocent? Are the people that delivered the raw materials to the bomb factory innocent? Are the accountants that handle the money for the bomb factory and enable it to coordinate it's resources innocent? Are the bankers who fund the whole enterprise innocent? Are all the people that help the bank run day to day innocent? Once again, draw your arbitrary line, but there is another pragmatic question too. Will destroying the factory help protect you? Will killing the accountants and destroying the accounting office help? That's a tactical decision.

I do believe the US is their enemy. And we've done some things to deserve that title. But seriously? "Legitimate protest" being ruthlessly crushed? A lot like terrorism is?

What? I think you've misread because that makes no sense. I meant when "legitimate protest" isn't allowed - i.e. there is no such thing as legitimate protest, then what are your alternatives?

But I think most 3rd party observers would consider terrorism more sneaky than righteous.

It depends on who that third party is.

For example, say that there are a bunch of guys with a lot of money behind them who use fancy transportation technology to sneak into the back yard of a house and once there about twenty heavily armed and armoured guys storm the house and shoot dead an unarmed old man in front of his wife. Now, 3rd party, which side of the line does that fall on?

 

[Robert]

Certainly not demented...

Even if they seriously believed that killing hundreds of innocents was the right thing to do?
This is how you defined dementia above.

But not exactly courageous, either. I've never been a big fan of air bombing the hell out of people.

Nor have I but how is that relevant? You seem to be somewhat hung-up on the connection between courage and what you personally find morally acceptable. I'd submit that this is to miss the point, almost completely.

From after-the-fact interviews, it's clear that many of these airmen believed what they were doing was right. Whether you or I agree on the moral point is completely and utterly irrelevant to whether they were courageous or not.

Flying through enemy flak, faced with probable death but carrying on because you believe it's for the greater good, is something I consider courageous. The fact that I disagree with the object of the mission is neither here nor there.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

The idea that suicide is equal to cowardice is, in my opinion, nothing more than a media-friendly sound bite.

No, it was worse than that. It was put out there to dehumanize the hijackers specifically to delegitimize any grievances they had. If they are cowardly and sneaky then we don't care what motivated them, and if they were fanatics then we don't even want to know, and if they are evil then they have no motivations whatsoever other than being evil. I can't think of anyone I've seen on US media who has broached the motivations of the hijackers as stated in the 911 report except for Ron Paul and then things always get dicey. You are not allowed to consider that they had motives, let along think about what those motives are or what we could do about things to smooth over some of those grievances.

 

[faethor]

Some good discussion around what does 'courage' mean.

I see courage as facing a danger or a crisis without allowing it to frighten you away from the situation. Being the robot plane's pilot is not facing any danger I dont see them being courageous. They're following orders and getting paid. They really akin to a high tech mercenary force who gets to go home and kiss their kids goodnight.