Gaza

metalman said:
Hamas has been shooting rockets into Israel for years. They have rejected all attempts at a brokered peace treaty, Hamas are the aggressors
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:lol: ... yeah, poor, innocent little Israel, eh?

Silliest thing I've read on here for at least a couple of days.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Erdogan calls Israel a "Terrorist State".
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I just saw that on TV and he's only stating the blindingly obvious.
Anyone arguing otherwise is kidding themselves on.

Turkey is somewhat important these days as a route for gas and oil pipelines to Europe and as a foil against Assad. They are also not owned by the US. Egypt is not the US vassal that it once was, either, and is pursuing it's own interests vis a vis Gaza and Israel. Even Iraq tested it's independence a little by suggesting that oil be used as a lever to pressure Israel on Gaza, though it seems that the Iraq envoy was made to withdraw those comments.
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I'd love to think some of that would make a difference but I can't see it.

In fact, I can't see much changing there for the foreseeable. It's been going on more or less like this for as long as I can remember (30+ years) and will continue to do so.
 
My hunch is that Israel is taking advantage of this opportunity to clear out Hamas's weapons cache to weaken Iran's hand. I mean, things between Israel and Gaza have been more along the aligns of a mini-cold war for a number of years. Gaza was rebuilding itself and the people there were slowly returning to some level of normalcy, especially since the fall of Mubarak. Despite all the import bans, there was plenty of concrete to go around and there was a lot of construction going on in Gaza. And things probably would have continued that way except that Hamas' latest jab against Israel was a little too successful, and Israel exploited the attack as an opportunity to escalte things and deal Hamas a heavy blow. But not for the sake of Gaza, I'm quite confident this is a proxy war intended to send a signal to Iran. But, it's probably also a signal to everyone else that Israel is done playing games. In other words, this is likely just a sign of things to come.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Which "he" are you referring to? The one who ignored the question about the boy killed on the 8th of November - after which Hamas sent 100 rockets? What do you mean by "to be fair"?
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To be fair, this all didn't start on Nov 8th. Yes, a Palestinian boy was killed that day, presumably by an Israeli, but that is not what ended the truce (if there really ever was one, and even if there was, so what, those come and go so fast in the Middle East no one really takes notice) nor was it the first shot fired. On Nov 5 an IED placed on the Israeli side of the border injured a number of IDF members. In fact, all year the two sides were taking pot shots at each other; Hamas firing rockets and mortars at Israeli towns and farmers and the IDF firing back at whatever moved too close to the border.

What is "fair" about the usual asymmetry with Israel unloading huge amounts of ordinance into hospitals and then saying that it's the Palestinians' fault because the fighters hide in hospitals.
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Yes, that is terrible. However, you seem to ignore that Hamas made rockets have crashed into Israeli schools. They have also launched a missle at Dimona which was luckily shot down. The main difference between the IDF and Hamas is their success rate, both are otherwise equally nasty.

Perhaps if the people were allowed to live decently and those who wanted to and still held deeds to properties that were stolen by Israel were allowed to go home or be compensated for those stolen properties the way Germany compensated Jews for the assets that they took - maybe we could start from there with fair and there would be far fewer rockets and bombs being exchanged.
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I can't disagree with that, and I believe that is exactly what needs to happen. I just think Hamas' tactics will NOT bring around this desired goal. Do you?
 
Glaucus said:
My hunch is that Israel is taking advantage of this opportunity to clear out Hamas's weapons cache to weaken Iran's hand.
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Yes, I think so too. Grind down Hamas' capabilities so they won't have to worry about them if they take on other fish to the east.
 
Glaucus said:
I can't disagree with that, and I believe that is exactly what needs to happen. I just think Hamas' tactics will NOT bring around this desired goal. Do you?
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I think Hamas relies on disproportionate response for international opinion and Israel relies on disproportionate response for domestic opinion.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Israeli minister vows Palestinian "holocaust"
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Not likely to have meant genocide, but still, people need to choose their words carefully with so many people's lives at risk.

Not all Israelis have this kind of bravado. In fact, some think quite differently.

My Tel Aviv Bubble, Burst

Less than an hour later he was dressed in his army uniform, ready to go. I was crying uncontrollably, anything but the brave example the Israeli norm deems I should portray to our three sons. The boys were surprised to see their father in uniform, but it took them only a second to go back to their iPad. It would take me about an hour to stop sobbing, and while I acknowledge that it’s preferable not to fall to pieces in front of your children, I didn’t feel a good reason to hold myself back.
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In contrast to this, the politicians look like emotional machines built for death and destruction. Too bad they don't place themselves on the front lines and let their own families descend into a fearful anxiety.
 
And now for something completely different. Or at least, a slightly different perspective that we should have, but haven't yet seen a lot of:

How Hamas Won the War

Ignore the funny title:
Why is it that Hamas -- purveyor of terror, launcher of Iranian-supplied rockets, and source of "death to the Jews" tropes -- is getting more attention, traction, legitimacy and support than the "good" Palestinian, the reasonable and grandfatherly Mahmoud Abbas, who has foresworn violence in favor of negotiations?Since the crisis began, President Obama seems to have talked to every other Middle Eastern leader except Abbas.
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This war is between two combatants; Hamas and Israel, but perhaps the biggest loser will be Mahmoud Abbas. I really hope not as I don't see any possibility of peace without him.
 
Glaucus said:
In contrast to this, the politicians look like emotional machines built for death and destruction. Too bad they don't place themselves on the front lines and let their own families descend into a fearful anxiety.
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It's always political. Politicians don't fight the wars, they just start them and use them. It helps keep their subjects paranoid and dependent and it occasionally gains taxable or strategic territory. The people generally don't want war but, as Goering noted, they can be talked into it.
 
Glaucus said:
And now for something completely different. Or at least, a slightly different perspective that we should have, but haven't yet seen a lot of:
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Iranian supplied rockets? That was BS and later admitted to be BS - but I guess it stuck in some people's minds as intended. As to Abbas, a lot of Palestinians already viewed him as a quisling - more Israel's manager in the territories rather than Palestine's leader.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Iranian supplied rockets? That was BS and later admitted to be BS - but I guess it stuck in some people's minds as intended.
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Who admitted it was BS? And if not Iranian supplied, supplied by who?
 
They make some rockets, most of which are very short ranged. Some of their better rockets are of Chinese origin (although hard to say if they were Chinese built).

Grad Rocket
Since 2006 Hamas has fired 122mm Grad rockets, copies made in Iran, and Eastern-bloc versions modified to expand their range and lethality, into Israel.[4] The rockets were believed to be smuggled into the Gaza Strip via tunnels from Egypt.[4] Some of the rockets were of a Chinese Grad variant.[5] Hamas sources said they were pleased by the performance of the Chinese variants of the BM-21 Grad rocket, which demonstrated a far greater range and blast impact than Palestinian-made rockets, as well as Russian-origin Grads or Katyushas.[5][6]
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