Georgia, the Olympics, the US armada and Iran

FluffyMcDeath said:
Glaucus said:
Robert said:
Red Dawn's just come on telly!
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You know, I've never actually watched that movie. Sounds pretty lame though.

- Mike
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It's about a bunch of insurgents, terrorists and dead enders who try to repel liberators which have just come to the country and freed the country of its former regime.
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Hmmm... Let me guess which side you would be rooting for... ;-)

- Mike
 
When all this started I talked about it with a work mate who's from Kiev. He even worked for Sukhoi making inter-component communications systems for Soviet fighter planes. Anyway, he told me that from what he could tell (remember, he reads Russian & Ukrainian news sites) it really did seem as if Russia pre-planned it. Not only that, the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans. The Ukraine is bigger and closer to Europe then Georgia is, but that probably doesn't count for much against Russia. He told me that Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country. In other words, this type of invasion by civilians, then followed by military is a ploy the Russians have been expected on using. It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes. In this case all they needed to do was issue passports and Kalashnikovs (with the promise that the vodka would come later).

- Mike
 
When all this started I talked about it with a work mate who's from Kiev. He even worked for Sukhoi making inter-component communications systems for Soviet fighter planes. Anyway, he told me that from what he could tell (remember, he reads Russian & Ukrainian news sites) it really did seem as if Russia pre-planned it. Not only that, the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans. The Ukraine is bigger and closer to Europe then Georgia is, but that probably doesn't count for much against Russia. He told me that Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country. In other words, this type of invasion by civilians, then followed by military is a ploy the Russians have been expected on using. It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes. In this case all they needed to do was issue passports and Kalashnikovs (with the promise that the vodka would come later).

- Mike
 
When all this started I talked about it with a work mate who's from Kiev. He even worked for Sukhoi making inter-component communications systems for Soviet fighter planes. Anyway, he told me that from what he could tell (remember, he reads Russian & Ukrainian news sites) it really did seem as if Russia pre-planned it. Not only that, the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans. The Ukraine is bigger and closer to Europe then Georgia is, but that probably doesn't count for much against Russia. He told me that Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country. In other words, this type of invasion by civilians, then followed by military is a ploy the Russians have been expected on using. It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes. In this case all they needed to do was issue passports and Kalashnikovs (with the promise that the vodka would come later).

- Mike
 
When all this started I talked about it with a work mate who's from Kiev. He even worked for Sukhoi making inter-component communications systems for Soviet fighter planes. Anyway, he told me that from what he could tell (remember, he reads Russian & Ukrainian news sites) it really did seem as if Russia pre-planned it. Not only that, the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans. The Ukraine is bigger and closer to Europe then Georgia is, but that probably doesn't count for much against Russia. He told me that Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country. In other words, this type of invasion by civilians, then followed by military is a ploy the Russians have been expected on using. It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes. In this case all they needed to do was issue passports and Kalashnikovs (with the promise that the vodka would come later).

- Mike
 
When all this started I talked about it with a work mate who's from Kiev. He even worked for Sukhoi making inter-component communications systems for Soviet fighter planes. Anyway, he told me that from what he could tell (remember, he reads Russian & Ukrainian news sites) it really did seem as if Russia pre-planned it. Not only that, the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans. The Ukraine is bigger and closer to Europe then Georgia is, but that probably doesn't count for much against Russia. He told me that Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country. In other words, this type of invasion by civilians, then followed by military is a ploy the Russians have been expected on using. It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes. In this case all they needed to do was issue passports and Kalashnikovs (with the promise that the vodka would come later).

- Mike
 
When all this started I talked about it with a work mate who's from Kiev. He even worked for Sukhoi making inter-component communications systems for Soviet fighter planes. Anyway, he told me that from what he could tell (remember, he reads Russian & Ukrainian news sites) it really did seem as if Russia pre-planned it. Not only that, the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans. The Ukraine is bigger and closer to Europe then Georgia is, but that probably doesn't count for much against Russia. He told me that Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country. In other words, this type of invasion by civilians, then followed by military is a ploy the Russians have been expected on using. It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes. In this case all they needed to do was issue passports and Kalashnikovs (with the promise that the vodka would come later).

- Mike
 
Glaucus said:
the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans.
Click to expand...

Hardly surprising, given the Ukranian government's (although apparently not the Ukranian population's) desire to join NATO.

As an aside, anyone fancy a counterweight to NATO?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/944f00c2-74d8 ... ck_check=1
The Russian president was also quoted by Bloomberg news agency as proposing the expansion of the SCO, a loose security grouping with China and five Central Asian states, as a counterweight to NATO and the West. The goal ”is the further growth of the authority of our organisation in the world arena,’’ Mr Medvedev was quoted as saying.

In addition to Russia and China, the seven-year-old SCO includes the former Soviet republics of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan.

The group may decide on Thursday to admit either India, Iran, Pakistan or Mongolia, which currently have ”observer“ status, Mr Medvedev said.
Click to expand...

No doubt any such move will have the hypocrites out in force again, with their ludicrous cries of "unacceptable," etc.


Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country.
Click to expand...

Interesting restraint for a so-called 'free democracy'.

It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes.
Click to expand...

Well, of course and this is exactly one of the points some of us have been trying to make above the hypocritical din of Georgia-good-Russia-bad rhetoric coming from almost all the major news outlets and US/UK governments.
 
Glaucus said:
the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans.
Click to expand...

Hardly surprising, given the Ukranian government's (although apparently not the Ukranian population's) desire to join NATO.

As an aside, anyone fancy a counterweight to NATO?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/944f00c2-74d8 ... ck_check=1
The Russian president was also quoted by Bloomberg news agency as proposing the expansion of the SCO, a loose security grouping with China and five Central Asian states, as a counterweight to NATO and the West. The goal ”is the further growth of the authority of our organisation in the world arena,’’ Mr Medvedev was quoted as saying.

In addition to Russia and China, the seven-year-old SCO includes the former Soviet republics of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan.

The group may decide on Thursday to admit either India, Iran, Pakistan or Mongolia, which currently have ”observer“ status, Mr Medvedev said.
Click to expand...

No doubt any such move will have the hypocrites out in force again, with their ludicrous cries of "unacceptable," etc.


Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country.
Click to expand...

Interesting restraint for a so-called 'free democracy'.

It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes.
Click to expand...

Well, of course and this is exactly one of the points some of us have been trying to make above the hypocritical din of Georgia-good-Russia-bad rhetoric coming from almost all the major news outlets and US/UK governments.
 
Glaucus said:
the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans.
Click to expand...

Hardly surprising, given the Ukranian government's (although apparently not the Ukranian population's) desire to join NATO.

As an aside, anyone fancy a counterweight to NATO?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/944f00c2-74d8 ... ck_check=1
The Russian president was also quoted by Bloomberg news agency as proposing the expansion of the SCO, a loose security grouping with China and five Central Asian states, as a counterweight to NATO and the West. The goal ”is the further growth of the authority of our organisation in the world arena,’’ Mr Medvedev was quoted as saying.

In addition to Russia and China, the seven-year-old SCO includes the former Soviet republics of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan.

The group may decide on Thursday to admit either India, Iran, Pakistan or Mongolia, which currently have ”observer“ status, Mr Medvedev said.
Click to expand...

No doubt any such move will have the hypocrites out in force again, with their ludicrous cries of "unacceptable," etc.


Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country.
Click to expand...

Interesting restraint for a so-called 'free democracy'.

It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes.
Click to expand...

Well, of course and this is exactly one of the points some of us have been trying to make above the hypocritical din of Georgia-good-Russia-bad rhetoric coming from almost all the major news outlets and US/UK governments.
 
Glaucus said:
the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans.
Click to expand...

Hardly surprising, given the Ukranian government's (although apparently not the Ukranian population's) desire to join NATO.

As an aside, anyone fancy a counterweight to NATO?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/944f00c2-74d8 ... ck_check=1
The Russian president was also quoted by Bloomberg news agency as proposing the expansion of the SCO, a loose security grouping with China and five Central Asian states, as a counterweight to NATO and the West. The goal ”is the further growth of the authority of our organisation in the world arena,’’ Mr Medvedev was quoted as saying.

In addition to Russia and China, the seven-year-old SCO includes the former Soviet republics of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan.

The group may decide on Thursday to admit either India, Iran, Pakistan or Mongolia, which currently have ”observer“ status, Mr Medvedev said.
Click to expand...

No doubt any such move will have the hypocrites out in force again, with their ludicrous cries of "unacceptable," etc.


Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country.
Click to expand...

Interesting restraint for a so-called 'free democracy'.

It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes.
Click to expand...

Well, of course and this is exactly one of the points some of us have been trying to make above the hypocritical din of Georgia-good-Russia-bad rhetoric coming from almost all the major news outlets and US/UK governments.
 
Glaucus said:
the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans.
Click to expand...

Hardly surprising, given the Ukranian government's (although apparently not the Ukranian population's) desire to join NATO.

As an aside, anyone fancy a counterweight to NATO?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/944f00c2-74d8 ... ck_check=1
The Russian president was also quoted by Bloomberg news agency as proposing the expansion of the SCO, a loose security grouping with China and five Central Asian states, as a counterweight to NATO and the West. The goal ”is the further growth of the authority of our organisation in the world arena,’’ Mr Medvedev was quoted as saying.

In addition to Russia and China, the seven-year-old SCO includes the former Soviet republics of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan.

The group may decide on Thursday to admit either India, Iran, Pakistan or Mongolia, which currently have ”observer“ status, Mr Medvedev said.
Click to expand...

No doubt any such move will have the hypocrites out in force again, with their ludicrous cries of "unacceptable," etc.


Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country.
Click to expand...

Interesting restraint for a so-called 'free democracy'.

It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes.
Click to expand...

Well, of course and this is exactly one of the points some of us have been trying to make above the hypocritical din of Georgia-good-Russia-bad rhetoric coming from almost all the major news outlets and US/UK governments.
 
Glaucus said:
the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans.
Click to expand...

Hardly surprising, given the Ukranian government's (although apparently not the Ukranian population's) desire to join NATO.

As an aside, anyone fancy a counterweight to NATO?
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/944f00c2-74d8 ... ck_check=1
The Russian president was also quoted by Bloomberg news agency as proposing the expansion of the SCO, a loose security grouping with China and five Central Asian states, as a counterweight to NATO and the West. The goal ”is the further growth of the authority of our organisation in the world arena,’’ Mr Medvedev was quoted as saying.

In addition to Russia and China, the seven-year-old SCO includes the former Soviet republics of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan.

The group may decide on Thursday to admit either India, Iran, Pakistan or Mongolia, which currently have ”observer“ status, Mr Medvedev said.
Click to expand...

No doubt any such move will have the hypocrites out in force again, with their ludicrous cries of "unacceptable," etc.


Ukraine does not allow it's citizens dual citizenship for the very reason that it has always been expected that Russia would attempt to issue passports to Ukrainians and cultivate it's support base in the country.
Click to expand...

Interesting restraint for a so-called 'free democracy'.

It's similar to Kosovo where Albanian civilians first "immigrated" and then decided to make the land their own - thanks to Western intervention. It seems Russia took careful notes.
Click to expand...

Well, of course and this is exactly one of the points some of us have been trying to make above the hypocritical din of Georgia-good-Russia-bad rhetoric coming from almost all the major news outlets and US/UK governments.
 
Robert said:
Glaucus said:
the Ukraine is seriously concerned about Russia's long term plans.
Click to expand...

Hardly surprising, given the Ukranian government's (although apparently not the Ukrainian population's) desire to join NATO.
Click to expand...
I really don't know much about what the average Ukrainian thinks of NATO, but it does appear that the population is split between the West and Russia - with the pro-West being a majority. And that makes historic sense. The Ukrainian suffered under Soviet rule, but at the same time many Russians moved into the area. If the majority of Ukrainians really want to severe the ties with Russia, NATO is their best chance at that. The Ukrainian Russians will probably protest this, with much support and encouragement from Russia I'm sure. I certainly don't buy the idea that the Ukrainian leadership is acting against the wishes of the majority in this case.

No doubt any such move will have the hypocrites out in force again, with their ludicrous cries of "unacceptable," etc.
Click to expand...
Maybe, but it does seem like a well planned escalation of the cold war here. Btw, notice that many of the nations in the SCO, and those planning to join, have some of the worst human rights records with dubious forms of government?

Interesting restraint for a so-called 'free democracy'.
Click to expand...
I think it sounds reasonable considering the situation.

Well, of course and this is exactly one of the points some of us have been trying to make above the hypocritical din of Georgia-good-Russia-bad rhetoric coming from almost all the major news outlets and US/UK governments.
Click to expand...
The Kosovo Albanians were encouraged by Western support and when the KLA made attacks on Serbs, the Serbs attacked back and that gave NATO the "moral" authority to attack the Serbs. Here, Russia armed and encouraged the South Ossetians to attack the Georgians, which they did. They drew in the Georgians in much the same way as the KLA drew in the Serbs, and the Georgian attack drew in Russia much how the Serbs drew in NATO. I opposed the NATO attack on Serbia as I oppose the Russian attack on Georgia. Kosovo was a win for the West, S. Ossetia a win for Russia. One may argue that Russia was driven to make their move with NATO expansion and the missile defense shield in Europe, but I can not believe that the US was directly behind this war. Whether Georgia is good or evil is secondary to me as there's a much bigger picture here.

- Mike
 
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