Georgia, the Olympics, the US armada and Iran

[FluffyMcDeath]

Georgia admits to dropping cluster bombs on Ossetia.
OSCE report points finger at Georgia for S. Ossetia crisis
and US military trained Georgian commandos.

The US military provided combat training to 80 Georgian special forces commandos only months prior to Georgia’s army assault in South Ossetia in August.

The revelation, based on recruitment documents and interviews with US military trainers obtained by the Financial Times, could add fuel to accusations by Vlad imir Putin, Russian prime minister, last month that the US had “orchestrated” the war in the Georgian enclave.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

An accusation of bias in the press from someone who works in the industry

and in interesting statistic.

Yet, many readers seem to disagree with the editorial lines. The German daily Die Welt has conducted an online opinion poll asking which side Europe should take in the Caucasus conflict.

Out of almost 5,000 people, 46 percent say that Europe should support Russia. 31 percent believe it should be neutral. 23 percent say Europe should take the Georgian side.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

An accusation of bias in the press from someone who works in the industry

and in interesting statistic.

Yet, many readers seem to disagree with the editorial lines. The German daily Die Welt has conducted an online opinion poll asking which side Europe should take in the Caucasus conflict.

Out of almost 5,000 people, 46 percent say that Europe should support Russia. 31 percent believe it should be neutral. 23 percent say Europe should take the Georgian side.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

An accusation of bias in the press from someone who works in the industry

and in interesting statistic.

Yet, many readers seem to disagree with the editorial lines. The German daily Die Welt has conducted an online opinion poll asking which side Europe should take in the Caucasus conflict.

Out of almost 5,000 people, 46 percent say that Europe should support Russia. 31 percent believe it should be neutral. 23 percent say Europe should take the Georgian side.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

An accusation of bias in the press from someone who works in the industry

and in interesting statistic.

Yet, many readers seem to disagree with the editorial lines. The German daily Die Welt has conducted an online opinion poll asking which side Europe should take in the Caucasus conflict.

Out of almost 5,000 people, 46 percent say that Europe should support Russia. 31 percent believe it should be neutral. 23 percent say Europe should take the Georgian side.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

An accusation of bias in the press from someone who works in the industry

and in interesting statistic.

Yet, many readers seem to disagree with the editorial lines. The German daily Die Welt has conducted an online opinion poll asking which side Europe should take in the Caucasus conflict.

Out of almost 5,000 people, 46 percent say that Europe should support Russia. 31 percent believe it should be neutral. 23 percent say Europe should take the Georgian side.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

An accusation of bias in the press from someone who works in the industry

and in interesting statistic.

Yet, many readers seem to disagree with the editorial lines. The German daily Die Welt has conducted an online opinion poll asking which side Europe should take in the Caucasus conflict.

Out of almost 5,000 people, 46 percent say that Europe should support Russia. 31 percent believe it should be neutral. 23 percent say Europe should take the Georgian side.

 

[Robert]

Ukraine....

the article states that only 36% would oppose NATO in a referendum,

More than three times as many who said they'd go the other way, which backs up my point that, on the most recent polling evidence I can find, the majority of the population don't share the leadership's desire to join NATO.

An intriguing article on this here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/se ... ine.russia

Crimea will declare itself independent should Yushchenko press ahead with his plans for Ukraine to join Nato.

And you can betcherarse that Putin would be blamed by Western media and governments, should this come to pass.

On the streets of Sevastopol, the mood is defiantly pro-Russian. It is also vehemently opposed to Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko and his plans to join Nato.
-
"The majority of the population here supports the presence of the Black Sea fleet," said Anatoly Kalenko, chairman of Sevastopol's veterans' association, and a former nuclear submarine commander. According to Kalenko, locals would resist any attempt to turf out the Russian fleet, especially if Nato ships would occupy the base instead.

"We categorically don't want other vessels here. Not the Americans, not the French and not the Turks," he said. "Britain has a tradition of seafaring. We respect that; we remember Nelson. But frankly we don't want you here either.'

But then, who ever gives a badger's what the locals think in these situations?

 

[Glaucus]

Georgia admits to dropping cluster bombs on Ossetia.
OSCE report points finger at Georgia for S. Ossetia crisis
and US military trained Georgian commandos.

The US military provided combat training to 80 Georgian special forces commandos only months prior to Georgia’s army assault in South Ossetia in August.

The revelation, based on recruitment documents and interviews with US military trainers obtained by the Financial Times, could add fuel to accusations by Vlad imir Putin, Russian prime minister, last month that the US had “orchestrated” the war in the Georgian enclave.

Yes, cluster bombs are nasty, shame on Georgia. They at least, unlike the Russians, are honest enough to admit to using them. Also, I have yet to hear reports that Georgians used them on populated areas. The Roki tunnel isn't considered a populated area, and is the main link the Russians would have used to invade Georgia.

As for the US training the Georgians, that's not news. It was never a secret either. Everyone knew that there were even US soldiers in Georgia at the time of the attacks. It was also known that Georgia built a new base to NATO standards that Russia went out of it's to destroy. But, it's interesting that you mention that only US soldiers were there. Ukrainian soldiers also trained Georgians, and even supplied them with weapons and are accused by Russia of supplying Georgia with the SAM systems used to shoot down Russian aircraft.

The fact that many Europeans side with Russia doesn't surprise me. They lost all trust with the US and so long as George Bush is in power I don't expect Europe to ever give the US the benefit of the doubt. But the Europeans would be very foolish to think that Putin is some kind of world savior. As bad as Bush is, I think Putin is ten times worse and if given the chance will make life for the West very difficult. If I could have either Bush or Putin assassinated, I'd pick Putin as he's more dangerous. But, people believe what they want to believe. But if you believe Putin went into Georgia for humanitarian reasons, then how do you explain this?

Recent satellite images released by the UN program UNOSAT confirm the widespread torching of ethnic Georgian villages inside South Ossetia, Human Rights Watch said today. Detailed analysis of the damage depicted in five ethnic Georgian villages shows the destruction of these villages around the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, was caused by intentional burning and not armed combat.

- Mike

 

[Glaucus]

Re: Ukraine....

the article states that only 36% would oppose NATO in a referendum,

More than three times as many who said they'd go the other way, which backs up my point that, on the most recent polling evidence I can find, the majority of the population don't share the leadership's desire to join NATO.

An intriguing article on this here:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/se ... ine.russia

[quote:3w3tkr53]Crimea will declare itself independent should Yushchenko press ahead with his plans for Ukraine to join Nato.

And you can betcherarse that Putin would be blamed by Western media and governments, should this come to pass.

On the streets of Sevastopol, the mood is defiantly pro-Russian. It is also vehemently opposed to Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko and his plans to join Nato.
-
"The majority of the population here supports the presence of the Black Sea fleet," said Anatoly Kalenko, chairman of Sevastopol's veterans' association, and a former nuclear submarine commander. According to Kalenko, locals would resist any attempt to turf out the Russian fleet, especially if Nato ships would occupy the base instead.

"We categorically don't want other vessels here. Not the Americans, not the French and not the Turks," he said. "Britain has a tradition of seafaring. We respect that; we remember Nelson. But frankly we don't want you here either.'

But then, who ever gives a badger's what the locals think in these situations?[/quote:3w3tkr53]Of course, you do realize that this Navy town is really a Russian Navy town, right? What else would you expect them to say? The guy interviewed most certainly had a Russian passport, and I wouldn't be surprised if his son was in the Russian Navy stationed there. Remove the Russian Navy and you just might see the Russian supporters leave with it.

- Mike

 

[Robert]

@Mike:

you do realize that this Navy town is really a Russian Navy town, right?

Of course; the whole Crimea was Russian territory until 1954.

Remove the Russian Navy and you just might see the Russian supporters leave with it.

Sorry if this comes across as rude but that is an absurd point to make.

You're basically saying remove the people who live there and it'll all be OK. A wee bit too close to ethnic cleansing for my tastes.

 

[Glaucus]

Sorry if this comes across as rude but that is an absurd point to make.

You're basically saying remove the people who live there and it'll all be OK. A wee bit too close to ethnic cleansing for my tastes.

Umm.. that's not really what I was trying to say. Along with a military base go many civilian workers. If Russia were to pull their navy out of there, most of the support personnel would leave because they have nothing to do. Don't you think most US contractors hired to feed and take care of the US army in Baghdad would leave once the US army pulls out?

- Mike

 

[Robert]

Sorry if this comes across as rude but that is an absurd point to make.

You're basically saying remove the people who live there and it'll all be OK. A wee bit too close to ethnic cleansing for my tastes.

Umm.. that's not really what I was trying to say. Along with a military base go many civilian workers. If Russia were to pull their navy out of there, most of the support personnel would leave because they have nothing to do. Don't you think most US contractors hired to feed and take care of the US army in Baghdad would leave once the US army pulls out?

- Mike

Well, if that's all you meant, I think you're well wide of the mark. Support for Russia in that part of the Ukraine appears to be much higher than just the workers at the base.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Saakashvili started it according to "Irakly Okruashvili, Georgia's leading political exile". Of course, being an exile he may have an ax to grind. Well, he was an ally of Saakashvili and the ax he seems to be grinding is that he was totally in favour of taking Ossetia by force but that Saakashvili effed it up.

 

[Glaucus]

Well, if that's all you meant, I think you're well wide of the mark. Support for Russia in that part of the Ukraine appears to be much higher than just the workers at the base.

Perhaps you're right. What I do know is that when the Ukraine separated from Russia they had a referendum. More then 50% of the people in the Crimea voted for Ukraine's independence. If they wanted to stay part of Russia, that would have been their best chance to make such a move. Despite that, don't underestimate the influence a Russian navy base could have in the area, in both political and economic terms.

- Mike

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Saakashvili to be replaced?
Information? Disinformation?

 

[Glaucus]

Interesting. The US may pressure him to resign. Hey may resign despite what the US wants, but overall it does kinda suggest he wasn't really in tune with Washington on this one. I'd say that's argument against US involvement in the conflict.

- Mike

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Interesting. The US may pressure him to resign. Hey may resign despite what the US wants, but overall it does kinda suggest he wasn't really in tune with Washington on this one. I'd say that's argument against US involvement in the conflict.

- Mike

I have changed my tune on that. From the fallout it is looking like he was a bit of a loose cannon. Seems like he got impatient and tried to drag the US into something they were not willing to be a part of. For whatever reason he was unwilling to play the long game.

 

[Glaucus]

I have changed my tune on that. From the fallout it is looking like he was a bit of a loose cannon. Seems like he got impatient and tried to drag the US into something they were not willing to be a part of. For whatever reason he was unwilling to play the long game.

There certainly is evidence to support that theory. I still think Russia's role is highly questionable. It really all boils down to the finer details of what led up to this conflict, and we might never really know. Before Aug 7, what was the fighting all about in S. Ossetia? How many of the S. Ossetians evacuated BEFORE the Georgian assault? Very curious. I do remember hearing months before about Russian drones and Georgian drones flying over each others air space, some being shot down, etc. None of this was unexpected, so why is everyone surprised? Many questions to answer, but I still can't help but think that this is all very much KGB.

- Mike

 

[ltstanfo]

I have changed my tune on that. From the fallout it is looking like he was a bit of a loose cannon. Seems like he got impatient and tried to drag the US into something they were not willing to be a part of. For whatever reason he was unwilling to play the long game.

There certainly is evidence to support that theory. I still think Russia's role is highly questionable. It really all boils down to the finer details of what led up to this conflict, and we might never really know. Before Aug 7, what was the fighting all about in S. Ossetia? How many of the S. Ossetians evacuated BEFORE the Georgian assault? Very curious. I do remember hearing months before about Russian drones and Georgian drones flying over each others air space, some being shot down, etc. None of this was unexpected, so why is everyone surprised? Many questions to answer, but I still can't help but think that this is all very much KGB.

- Mike

Well spoken Mike (only they call it FSB these days... same bureau, different name.

Regards,
Ltstanfo