GM to build 10,000 Chevy Volts in 2011

[cecilia]

High school students build zero-emission 300 mpg electric car

 

[faethor]

@Red

A couple of items I've run across. Chinese made SUV, Zoyote, is coming to the USA. Roush is working on the electric only model. It's about Honda CRV sized. Estimated cost is $30K. Range is 150-200 miles between charges. Top speed is 70 MPH.

Ford's new electric charger for their plug-ins is 6.6kW and takes about 4 hours to charge your car. Twice as fast as the Nissan Leaf's charger at 3.3kW and 8 hours to charge. Nissan is supposedly going to upgrade their chargers.

Toyota is saying 10 new electric vehicles within the next 4 years. With "genuine driving excitment" -- which of course is a phrase I can only laugh at in association with any Toyota. Perhaps they've stolen enough Fuji Heavy Industries tech (aka Subaru).

 

[redrumloa]

@Red

A couple of items I've run across. Chinese made SUV, Zoyote, is coming to the USA. Roush is working on the electric only model. It's about Honda CRV sized. Estimated cost is $30K. Range is 150-200 miles between charges. Top speed is 70 MPH.

Ford's new electric charger for their plug-ins is 6.6kW and takes about 4 hours to charge your car. Twice as fast as the Nissan Leaf's charger at 3.3kW and 8 hours to charge. Nissan is supposedly going to upgrade their chargers.

Toyota is saying 10 new electric vehicles within the next 4 years. With "genuine driving excitment" -- which of course is a phrase I can only laugh at in association with any Toyota. Perhaps they've stolen enough Fuji Heavy Industries tech (aka Subaru).

Good stuff, thanks!

 

[cybereye]

Sad, but predicted by me. I have long argued with a friend of mine that the price is simply way too high for the Volt. I don't know what they were thinking, nor my friend. I had higher hopes for the Leaf, but even that price is too high. The leaf was advertised all along as being an affordable car. First they hinted it would be sub $20k, then they stated it would be about $24,000. Last I checked they are about $33,000 in the dealer. Anyone with a brain will factor in the cost of not just the increased electric bill, but the periodic battery pack replacement. It simply is not worth it unless you are rich, at this point.

I am this friend that Redrumloa talk about this electric car, the Volts. The big picture is what we can agree, but the finer detail is what we do not agree nor are we talking about two different subjects within the big picture. We are stuck with the subject as ROI for MPGe. I do agree that Volts cost too high cause of the battery and I also knew leaf is way too low to sell the car. At this point, The Volts is the only car that used extended range electric vehicle. I keep telling him that you can’t use MPG or MPGe cause it not the same as a gasoline car. I disagree with the EPA Ratings as misleading. The Volt and the Leaf is a new type of cars that EPA will have to learn a new way to compare. EPA should start looking at energy efficiency, not energy usage. MPGe is a measure of the average distance traveled per “unit of energy” consumed. That “unit of energy” is in which 33.7 kilowatt hours of electricity is equivalent to one gallon of gasoline. If the car companies want a higher MPGe, just add a bigger battery pack.

The mass production cars are very new and no one knows the value of maintain the EV. The battery warranty on the Volt is for 8 year or 100,000 miles and Leaf just bump up with the Volt’s warranty. That settles the battery problem. I would gamble on maintain of EV cost less than the gasoline cars.

Here another user try to test the EPA view.
http://www.stltoday.com/classifieds/tra ... mode=story

 

[faethor]

The Leaf sold 298 units in March vs. 67 in February; the Volt moved 608 in March vs. 281 in February

It appears Nissan is keeping most Leafs in Japan rather than ship them to the US. Also, the recent tsunami is expected to impact Leaf production and sales within the US and within Japan.

 

[cybereye]

It appears Nissan is keeping most Leafs in Japan rather than ship them to the US. Also, the recent tsunami is expected to impact Leaf production and sales within the US and within Japan.

Leaf plant is back online.

 

[cecilia]

Electric Vehicle Charging Stations Now On Google Maps

excellent idea! good for planning trips!

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

I am this friend that Redrumloa talk about this electric car, the Volts. The big picture is what we can agree, but the finer detail is what we do not agree nor are we talking about two different subjects within the big picture. We are stuck with the subject as ROI for MPGe. I do agree that Volts cost too high cause of the battery and I also knew leaf is way too low to sell the car.

I was wanting to buy a cheap old miata and electrify it a couple of years back. Thought that would be a fun project, but I took the wife shopping with me and she talked me into buying a newer model - for more money ... and I didn't convert it.

But that aside, I like the idea of an electric if the costs work out. I like the technologies anyway but not sure about the economics. If all subsidies were removed for coal and gas and roads etc, I suspect we'd all be getting around on electric trains but incentives are in place to change behaviour and while there are those who favour incentivising electric vehicles with tax breaks there are others who seem to be intent on de-incentivising with extra fees. For example in Washington state, there is a move afoot to place surcharges on electric cars to make up for lost gas tax revenue.

 

[metalman]

The Leaf carries a 24-kwh battery pack. A 50-mile one-way drive depletes the pack so much that the charge timer on the dash predicts a 34hr charge lvl 1 charge time or 6hr lvl 2 charge. Nissan says that the typical Level 2 charger installation will cost as much as $2000. If this triggers an upgrade to 200-amp service, the total cost could be substantially more. The installation is relatively simple for a licensed electrician, but the work will require a electrical permit from the local building department and and an inspection after the work is completed.

Drive 50 miles, wait 34 hours to drive another 50 miles.

EPA should start looking at energy efficiency, not energy usage. MPGe is a measure of the average distance traveled per “unit of energy” consumed. That “unit of energy” is in which 33.7 kilowatt hours of electricity is equivalent to one gallon of gasoline

You would have to include the energy efficiency of the electrical plant your getting electricity from.

Its not more efficient in energy usage, its just using a more abundant or cheaper source, nuclear, coal or hydro

 

[faethor]

The Leaf carries a 24-kwh battery pack. A 50-mile one-way drive depletes the pack so much that the charge timer on the dash predicts a 34hr charge lvl 1 charge time or 6hr lvl 2 charge. Nissan recommends their charger. This takes about 8 hours to charge the vehicle. Ford's charger is about 4 hours to charge as it charges at a faster rate.

You would have to include the energy efficiency of the electrical plant your getting electricity from.

Its not more efficient in energy usage, its just using a more abundant or cheaper source, nuclear, coal or hydro

Coal is fairly close to a car around 30%. A car is 25-35%. Natural Gas is much better towards 50%. A modern hydroelectric can be even higher towards 90%, though our older plants are probably close to the 70% range.

And isn't there more than 'energy efficency' to know? Almost all power plants capture pollutants better than automobiles. And there's the need to get energy to the source of generation. So there is also efficency of pollution cleaning and efficency of energy delivery systems. In the energy delivery systems we have gas that needs to be delivered to every town, gas cars, or coal to the local plant which powers many towns, or water is right there and doesn't get delivered. Each of those produces their own pollutants and own costs.

 

[metalman]

The Leaf carries a 24-kwh battery pack. A 50-mile one-way drive depletes the pack so much that the charge timer on the dash predicts a 34hr charge lvl 1 charge time or 6hr lvl 2 charge. Nissan recommends their charger. This takes about 8 hours to charge the vehicle. Ford's charger is about 4 hours to charge as it charges at a faster rate.

You would have to include the energy efficiency of the electrical plant your getting electricity from.

Its not more efficient in energy usage, its just using a more abundant or cheaper source, nuclear, coal or hydro

Coal is fairly close to a car around 30%. A car is 25-35%. Natural Gas is much better towards 50%. A modern hydroelectric can be even higher towards 90%, though our older plants are probably close to the 70% range.

And isn't there more than 'energy efficency' to know? Almost all power plants capture pollutants better than automobiles. And there's the need to get energy to the source of generation. So there is also efficency of pollution cleaning and efficency of energy delivery systems. In the energy delivery systems we have gas that needs to be delivered to every town, gas cars, or coal to the local plant which powers many towns, or water is right there and doesn't get delivered. Each of those produces their own pollutants and own costs.

secondary batteries (rechargeable batteries) all have losses from the charge/discharge cycle.
A lead-acid battery has an efficiency of only 75-85%. The energy lost appears as heat, its also has losses do to self discharge over time.


lithium-ion batteries have a efficiency of 95-98% and have self discharge voltage losses and capacity losses.

the efficiency of the ac to dc charger conversion must also be considered, probably around 90% efficient

total efficiency = power plant efficiency * ac/dc conversion efficiency * battery charge/discharge efficiency * self discharge efficiency losses (time between charge & use, non linear)

if the incremental demand for electricity is met by coal, the CO2 emissions are equivalent
Only for Wind, hyrdo or Nuclear power generation would the CO2 emissions be less

 

[cybereye]

If all subsidies were removed for coal and gas and roads etc, I suspect we'd all be getting around on electric trains but incentives are in place to change behaviour and while there are those who favour incentivising electric vehicles with tax breaks there are others who seem to be intent on de-incentivising with extra fees. For example in Washington state, there is a move afoot to place surcharges on electric cars to make up for lost gas tax revenue.

Government taxes anything and I am not surprise about taxing the EV. I was expected much later like 15 years from now. It looks like it going to happen earlier. I would not blame EV cause the lack of income from gas tax, I would says cars had becoming fuel efficient that created shortage of road funds.

Drive 50 miles, wait 34 hours to drive another 50 miles.

The 34 hours is base on level I charger that used 120v, If level II charger used 220-240v that will take 8 hours to charge the leaf’s battery.

EPA should start looking at energy efficiency, not energy usage. MPGe is a measure of the average distance traveled per “unit of energy” consumed. That “unit of energy” is in which 33.7 kilowatt hours of electricity is equivalent to one gallon of gasoline

You would have to include the energy efficiency of the electrical plant your getting electricity from.

I was talking about energy efficiency of the car, not power utilities to the EV. Nation’s power grid is the worst energy efficiency. Nation’s power grid is not in good shape. It really needed updated.

 

[cybereye]

We are stuck with the subject as ROI for MPGe. I do agree that Volts cost too high cause of the battery and I also knew leaf is way too low to sell the car."

“A sample of our early Volt customers suggest that they drive 1,000 miles before they fill up the gas tank,”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-04-0 ... sting.html

That seems to be very good ROI on the car base on the MPG. Redrumloa’s car is not even close to beating that. I would like to see what the ratios that able to get that numbers are out of all the Chevy Volt out there.

Redrumloa's car runs on diesel. Base on gasbuddy, the cheapest within Florida in last 24 hours is $3.49 and Chevy Volt has a nine gallon gas tank that require premium. Base on gasbuddy, the highest within Florida in last 24 hours is $4.25.

Abysmal! Are you kidding me??? My non-hybrid VW gets 38/44 and cost less than half the price of a Volt. Pathetic! I spit on GM management!

So 1000 miles divide by 44 would take 22 gallon of diesel. The total 22 gallon of diesel is $76.78 and the volt 9 gallon gas tank is $38.25. He would have save $38.53 out of 1000 miles driven. I use cheapest VW fuel with highway miles vs. Chevy highest fuel with short range on electric for handicap. That seems great in the long run. You know fuel is never fix price and price always go up in the long runs.

 

[redrumloa]

That seems to be very good ROI on the car base on the MPG. Redrumloa’s car is not even close to beating that. I would like to see what the ratios that able to get that numbers are out of all the Chevy Volt out there.

CE, CE, CE... What am I going to do with you?? You STILL miss the most obvious.

Consumers who don’t regularly drive very far can plug in the car to recharge and won’t use much fuel.

That does not mean free of cost. You still associate plugging in with free driving. To figure true MPGe you have to calculate the actually cost of kWh being used for for battery recharging compared to range driven. With such a large draw you also have to consider possible demand charges. This cost is not negligible, it is a real cost.

Finally you have to consider the cost of battery replacement every couple of years The Volt is a POS.

 

[metalman]

Popular Mechanics produced short films in the 1940s and 50s that showcased technology of the near and distant future. This short was released theatrically on May 21, 1948 and featured "streamlined marvels on wheels."

[youtube:29lkwj2u]FQoLXBF4uSA[/youtube:29lkwj2u]

the future of cars as predicted 60 years ago ...

 

[cybereye]

Consumers who don’t regularly drive very far can plug in the car to recharge and won’t use much fuel.

That does not mean free of cost. You still associate plugging in with free driving. To figure true MPGe you have to calculate the actually cost of kWh being used for for battery recharging compared to range driven. With such a large draw you also have to consider possible demand charges. This cost is not negligible, it is a real cost.

Finally you have to consider the cost of battery replacement every couple of years The Volt is a POS.

I know that MPG nor MPGe is still not the real value of cost of driven cause they are not the same value compare. The battery is the last thing to worry about because the leaf and the volt are guaranteed to cover the battery replacement for 8 years. The battery cells company that makes for GM says “guaranteed it can go for 10 years before the power get weaker, but not unusable. It just won’t have that power to push as it use to have.” I can tell you that the cost of electric is far cheaper to compare to oil and electric is more stable. If you hate FPL, you can get wind or solar power for the electric car while you still have to rely on other countries for oil. The maintain cost is really unknown, but in my view, it less maintain than the ICE cars by far. You keep compare the cost of an ICE cars to EV cars value should be the same. Sorry, the market disagrees with that point of view. I can’t buy the leaf nor the volt because I do not have the cash to buy, but it is not expensive because demand is still higher than the supplies.

 

[metalman]

Nissan To Fix 5,300 Leaf Electric Cars