GOP: Obama is dividing Americans

[the_leander]

But is it offsetting that or perpetuating that? Personally, I'd argue the latter.

I'm sure you would. On the other hand, that investment around my way has resulted in improved access to education through cultural centres, especially set up classes for new immigrants to help teach them English etc.

I can't imagine that the money is being spent all that differently than it is over here. For the local Pakistani community it means that for the first time since they came over, they are starting to see their british born kids applying for and being accepted into universities. Even 15 years ago that was almost unheard of. First gens yes, but not native born.

If money is being invested into these groups and its not having a similar effect over there, then there is something awfully wrong. I leave it up to you to investigate further on your end.

Ah.... and if you're actually going to imply that the system is still broken in the same way it was 60 years ago,

Pretty certain I already covered this point, at length in fact.

The challenges facing the urban communities are worlds different from what they were. Policies need to reflect this and be forward thinking. For the most part, blacks are no longer looked upon as sub-human. The skin matters less, but the communities matter more. There is way too much crime, corruption, and violence. There is also largely a sense of despair. These communities don't feel empowered to change. And, largely, I'd blame the current "assistance" programs as perpetuating this. As a people, you don't get change without effort. But instead of helping the communities build their future, we're giving handouts based on color. Honestly, its the cruelest way to ensure racism doesn't die. You plant the seed of helplessness, and then continue to water it.

And your plan to remove money from already impoverished groups sounds so much better.

Or black. I heard it from my buddy Corey first. I think he should know. He lived it.

Likewise my friend Danyal, who lives it.

 

[ilwrath]

Whoops. I accidentally deleted my parent post because I thought I double submitted. Sheesh. My brain is cooked for the week. I'm bummed. I actually liked that post. So for people who missed it, this thread skipped ahead a bit.

I'm sure you would. On the other hand, that investment around my way has resulted in improved access to education through cultural centres, especially set up classes for new immigrants to help teach them English etc.

Wait... So you're talking about helping the community. That's exactly what I'm saying we NEED to do here. Build a school or cultural center? We built none, but closed 4 or 5 schools and a couple cultural centers last year. They keep threatening to close the main public Library, too. Hell, Detroit doesn't even have a budget for adequate police or fire protection! And if we build anything at all, it's usually a sports center.

I can't imagine that the money is being spent all that differently than it is over here.

Apparently, it really is. Most of the money and assistance here goes to ethnic individuals directly. If you're a broke white family in the ghetto, you're doubly screwed. And the programs I'm talking about like Affirmative Action and racial "bonuses" are more about dividing than helping. See, employers are forced to hire certain ratios of ethnics. Universities are forced to grant special treatment (i.e. lower admission standards) to ethnics. This isn't about helping the communities get up to speed. It's about "helping" them by handout, INSTEAD OF getting them up to speed. If the education budget was anything more than an embezzlement target (See Detroit's habits of purchasing everything from suppliers owned by the city council and mayor, coupled with the completely incompetent school board, which was recently relieved of duty, wholesale), that would be a major improvement, right there.

If money is being invested into these groups and its not having a similar effect over there, then there is something awfully wrong. I leave it up to you to investigate further on your end.

Well, exactly as I've outlined, it's going to GROUPS instead of COMMUNITIES.

I guess that explains why you're confused, and I'm getting likes from the Americans.

 

[the_leander]

Perhaps it would be clearer if we defined what we meant when using words such as groups and communities. Because that seems to be the issue here.

The Pakistani community I view as a group, likewise when I said " If money is being invested into these groups and its not having a similar effect over there, then there is something awfully wrong" I'm talking about the various communities (typing on a touch screen is a chore) . I have never once heard of direct funding based on race. Do you mean to say that for instance tax codes are different, or that welfare cheques vary between various ethnicities?

The problem is from what I can see, there isn't a great divide between us in terms of what needs to be done, but that whilst you acknowledge that these communities are disadvantaged fail or perhaps refuse to see that we are more advantaged. Hence white privilege.

You know, this is probably the most enjoyable discussion I've had on here for months.

 

[robert l. bentham]

If you are actually going to imply that the system isn't still fundamentally broken I will mock you mercilessly.

hahahahahahaha! i spit chocolate milk thru my nose when i read this.... ewww! but hahahahaha!

 

[ilwrath]

Ugh. I wrote a big ole reply... And the extended security clipboard on Firefox, coupled with the short user timeout period on here, lost it. This will be a shorter reply.

Perhaps it would be clearer if we defined what we meant when using words such as groups and communities. Because that seems to be the issue here.

Yeah, poor wording on my part. By "groups" in this case, I was meaning all individuals of a certain heritage, regardless of need, education, location, etc. Not a community in that a common type of people living a certain common lifestyle.

The Pakistani community I view as a group, likewise when I said " If money is being invested into these groups and its not having a similar effect over there, then there is something awfully wrong" I'm talking about the various communities (typing on a touch screen is a chore) . I have never once heard of direct funding based on race. Do you mean to say that for instance tax codes are different, or that welfare cheques vary between various ethnicities?

Not tax codes or welfare. But other things, such as scholarships, training opportunities, and other public funds are absolutely distributed by race qualification only. No consideration for need, simply color. A black child from an upper 0.001%'er is qualified to receive all African-American assistance, as well as having to meet lower admissions standards to public universities. A white child from a broke-ass family in the inner city? Nope, he get's the same piddling of aid, and faces the same high admissions standards as the white kids from Bloomfield Hills (Michigan's richest city.)

Now, a large part of the problem with this is the assistance usually isn't going to those who need it most. The lower admissions standards and public-funded scholarships for minorities aren't helping the broke-ass minority families in Detroit. Their kids aren't getting a chance to graduate high-school, let alone shop for college assistance. Hell, their kids don't have adequate police and fire coverage. Their kids deal with the local libraries, community centers, and other public resources closing, due to the sliding tax base. The benefits are going to the middle and upper class minorities, who are already in established communities. And, if someone from Detroit DOES manage to use this assistance and get the education and land a job, the first thing they do is leave that dysfunctional and failing community. (And can you blame them? Who the hell wants to live where police reports for shots fired don't get a response for hours?) But again, the assistance money is LEAVING the community, not helping it.

The problem is from what I can see, there isn't a great divide between us in terms of what needs to be done, but that whilst you acknowledge that these communities are disadvantaged fail or perhaps refuse to see that we are more advantaged. Hence white privilege.

Quite untrue. I definitely do see there are privileges. I simply don't see how promoting programs based on color above need will help dissipate this problem. There's a lot of communities that need a lot of help. I'm not advocating turning my back on them. I'm advocating that we start identifying how to help those communities, rather than handing out "bonuses" based on color above need.

The smartest of the civil rights leaders in Detroit have been talking for the past 5 or 10 (or more) years now about how to help the community. I thought they were talking about the community as meaning their individual race. But, then I started really listening to what they are saying. And they're not talking race. They're talking actual community. Whatever color you are. If you're stuck in the inner city... Living the inner-city life, you're screwed. The community, as a whole, needs to heal and reclaim some sense of direction and purpose above the despair. The programs in place do not address this in any way.

You know, this is probably the most enjoyable discussion I've had on here for months.

Indeed, which is why I revisited it (twice) after I was gone for the weekend.

 

[the_leander]

Ugh. I wrote a big ole reply... And the extended security clipboard on Firefox, coupled with the short user timeout period on here, lost it. This will be a shorter reply.

On occasion when I've written a large reply I tend to copy and paste it into Operas notebook, just in case.

Not tax codes or welfare. But other things, such as scholarships, training opportunities, and other public funds are absolutely distributed by race qualification only. No consideration for need, simply color. A black child from an upper 0.001%'er is qualified to receive all African-American assistance, as well as having to meet lower admissions standards to public universities. A white child from a broke-ass family in the inner city? Nope, he get's the same piddling of aid, and faces the same high admissions standards as the white kids from Bloomfield Hills (Michigan's richest city.)

Could you provide evidence that admissions standards varies by race? I've looked for this before when this issue has been raised and as yet the closest I've found is where an admission policy has been lowered across the board.

Now, a large part of the problem with this is the assistance usually isn't going to those who need it most. The lower admissions standards and public-funded scholarships for minorities aren't helping the broke-ass minority families in Detroit. Their kids aren't getting a chance to graduate high-school, let alone shop for college assistance. Hell, their kids don't have adequate police and fire coverage. Their kids deal with the local libraries, community centers, and other public resources closing, due to the sliding tax base. The benefits are going to the middle and upper class minorities, who are already in established communities. And, if someone from Detroit DOES manage to use this assistance and get the education and land a job, the first thing they do is leave that dysfunctional and failing community. (And can you blame them? Who the hell wants to live where police reports for shots fired don't get a response for hours?) But again, the assistance money is LEAVING the community, not helping it.

Quite untrue. I definitely do see there are privileges. I simply don't see how promoting programs based on color above need will help dissipate this problem. There's a lot of communities that need a lot of help. I'm not advocating turning my back on them. I'm advocating that we start identifying how to help those communities, rather than handing out "bonuses" based on color above need.

As I told red in another thread, even where I am on the bottom rung, I can see this issue. Around half of all the workers are non white, but there is not one non white management, and down here, it's not covert racism or simply not being aware, there is an active, malignant core of overt racism present within the structure. It effectively means that anyone who is non white on that bottom rung is stuck there. From what I can tell this is often true across many entry level jobs in my own sector. I imagine that it could well extend beyond that but that is purely speculation on my part. By providing greater access to education, for many it is effectively the only way to bypass the barriers down here.

The smartest of the civil rights leaders in Detroit have been talking for the past 5 or 10 (or more) years now about how to help the community. I thought they were talking about the community as meaning their individual race. But, then I started really listening to what they are saying. And they're not talking race. They're talking actual community. Whatever color you are. If you're stuck in the inner city... Living the inner-city life, you're screwed. The community, as a whole, needs to heal and reclaim some sense of direction and purpose above the despair. The programs in place do not address this in any way.

The local council a few years back started doing mail shots to invite various communities living in the same area to go to meetings to discuss concerns. This was done so as to bypass the issue of various "community leaders" basically feathering their own nests and being able to silence complaints from below as they held the purse strings. The result was the construction of various community centres and forums designed to address issues and provide fixes for the communities involved that the general purpose offerings simply weren't equipped to deal with.

Many of these places, including the general purpose ones are now being shut down under "austerity" measures. Coupled with the hiking of university fees, the cutting of various bursaries it effectively means that the door is now shut on the working class getting into higher education, regardless of ethnicity.

Indeed, which is why I revisited it (twice) after I was gone for the weekend.

 

[faethor]

@the_leander,
Speaking of evidence in the system. Do you know how many black women CEO of Fortune 500 companies there are? The first one in the USA happened in 2009. The history of political and business leadership in this nation is white old rich dudes who tend to be taller, it's that simple.

 

[ilwrath]

On occasion when I've written a large reply I tend to copy and paste it into Operas notebook, just in case.

Yeah.... I just copied it to system clipboard, forgetting that Firefox can clear that for security once the page is cleared. D'oh!

Could you provide evidence that admissions standards varies by race? I've looked for this before when this issue has been raised and as yet the closest I've found is where an admission policy has been lowered across the board.

Here is the synopsis of the 1997 lawsuit that upheld the decision that the University of Michigan can profile admissions by selective standards based on race. http://www.cir-usa.org/cases/michigan.html Most other public-funded American universities do the same.

Grutter and Gratz are the most recent chapter in CIR's decade-long effort to end the use of racially preferential admission systems in colleges and universities. Though these systems take many forms, they share the same fundamental characteristic, namely the use of largely separate, lower admissions standards for preferred racial groups in order to boost the number of such students.
In CIR's view, treating applicants differently solely on account of their race violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, which prohibits states from denying "to any person…the equal protection of the laws." At issue in Gratz and Grutter were two contentions by the University of Michigan: first, that racial diversity is a compelling state interest that justifies an exception to the 14th Amendment and, second, that dual admissions standards are the only practical means to achieving racial diversity while maintaining high academic standards.

If that isn't cut and dried enough for you, I can spend another 2 minutes with Google... There's plenty of examples out there.

As I told red in another thread, even where I am on the bottom rung, I can see this issue. Around half of all the workers are non white, but there is not one non white management, and down here, it's not covert racism or simply not being aware, there is an active, malignant core of overt racism present within the structure. It effectively means that anyone who is non white on that bottom rung is stuck there. From what I can tell this is often true across many entry level jobs in my own sector. I imagine that it could well extend beyond that but that is purely speculation on my part. By providing greater access to education, for many it is effectively the only way to bypass the barriers down here.

That isn't the case nearly as much in the US. Though the CEO level can be an "old boys club" it isn't nearly to the degree it used to be. And lower- to middle-management of many huge companies is largely filled with minorities. In fact, they are often the ONLY ones promoted. It is largely speculated that this is to fill quotas. (Possibly being promoted after that being very difficult for minorities.... I don't know, as I've always been on the technical/contractor side, never the managerial one.)

Many of these places, including the general purpose ones are now being shut down under "austerity" measures. Coupled with the hiking of university fees, the cutting of various bursaries it effectively means that the door is now shut on the working class getting into higher education, regardless of ethnicity.

Indeed. Regardless of ethnicity. That's exactly what I'm saying. Instead of helping people who need it, we're handing out bonuses to the people who've already gotten established, based strictly on race. It doesn't make any sense. These programs should be helping the people who need it. They are failing, miserably.

 

[the_leander]

Yeah.... I just copied it to system clipboard, forgetting that Firefox can clear that for security once the page is cleared. D'oh!

If it's any consolation, you're not the only one in this discussion who's done that.

Here is the synopsis of the 1997 lawsuit that upheld the decision that the University of Michigan can profile admissions by selective standards based on race. http://www.cir-usa.org/cases/michigan.html Most other public-funded American universities do the same.

Um, wow. If they'd tried that over here the university would have been shut down.

If that isn't cut and dried enough for you, I can spend another 2 minutes with Google... There's plenty of examples out there.

Mind providing me with the search terms you used for this one? Like I said, the only things I've found in the past when looking for info about these sorts of things has been where admissions standards across the board have been lowered, though reading through that synopsis it's possible that the 14th might be the reason for that.

That isn't the case nearly as much in the US. Though the CEO level can be an "old boys club" it isn't nearly to the degree it used to be. And lower- to middle-management of many huge companies is largely filled with minorities. In fact, they are often the ONLY ones promoted. It is largely speculated that this is to fill quotas. (Possibly being promoted after that being very difficult for minorities.... I don't know, as I've always been on the technical/contractor side, never the managerial one.)

Like I said, I fly at a very low level. As such I can't comment on what things are like within the various professions.

Indeed. Regardless of ethnicity. That's exactly what I'm saying. Instead of helping people who need it, we're handing out bonuses to the people who've already gotten established, based strictly on race. It doesn't make any sense. These programs should be helping the people who need it. They are failing, miserably.

Thing is we had that, what we also did was shore up the abilities of non whites in deprived areas to ensure that their particular needs were met where they went beyond the standard offerings, something that ideally wouldn't have been needed, but over the years the infrastructure just hasn't kept up with the changes in society. As far as different passing requirements in unis, over here at least that simply wouldn't fly. It'd fall foul of our anti discrimination laws, which are pretty ferocious.

 

[ilwrath]

If it's any consolation, you're not the only one in this discussion who's done that.

Yup. Very easy mistake to make. We forget that programs can modify the clip data, as it didn't use to be that way.

Um, wow. If they'd tried that over here the university would have been shut down.

Yeah, as far as I know, it's still upheld, and standard procedure for most public-funded universities. Though they will never talk about it, unless forced to by lawsuit. They will trot out their diversity percent targets, though. And to make those targets, this is the method they use.

Mind providing me with the search terms you used for this one? Like I said, the only things I've found in the past when looking for info about these sorts of things has been where admissions standards across the board have been lowered, though reading through that synopsis it's possible that the 14th might be the reason for that.

The exact string I searched was a bit of a cheat, as I remembered the University of Michigan was one of the establishments singled out by the lawsuits... 'university of michigan admissions standards by race' (no quotes) was what I threw into google. Looked at the top hit.

simply 'public university admissions standards by race' turns up quite a bit, including a somewhat dated PBS article, and other highly reliable sources. The CIR and ACLU have both taken up (failed) lawsuits challenging the practice at various points.

Like I said, I fly at a very low level. As such I can't comment on what things are like within the various professions.

Yeah, kinda fly outside the politics. I pretty much work as hired knowledge. I find the sanity refreshing.

Thing is we had that, what we also did was shore up the abilities of non whites in deprived areas to ensure that their particular needs were met where they went beyond the standard offerings, something that ideally wouldn't have been needed, but over the years the infrastructure just hasn't kept up with the changes in society.

Yeah, that's a bummer. The safety net has been systematically undermined for quite some time, here, too. It's not that they don't dump bucketloads of money into the system, it's that the system doesn't provide useful assistance.

As far as different passing requirements in unis, over here at least that simply wouldn't fly. It'd fall foul of our anti discrimination laws, which are pretty ferocious.

The anti-discrimination laws here are much more ferocious in some directions than others. Hence, the perpetuation of tensions, rather than the dissipation of them. They are being used to breed hatred in both directions, not understanding.