It is getting worse in Lybia, Chavez supports Gadhafi

Glaucus said:
Interesting development:

Arab League backs no-fly zone in Libya
He said Arab League members have reservations about military intervention, but said all countries agreed that a no-fly zone must be imposed urgently to protect civilians.

"We hope the Libyan authorities will respect a no-fly decision," he said. "Be assured the Arab countries will not accept the intervention of the NATO coalition."
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I await their call for a no fly zone in Bahrain, where the authorities are proving equally murderous.
 
Has Bahrain used aircraft to bomb it's people? From what I could tell, they have Saudi troops doing the dirty work.
 
Glaucus said:
Has Bahrain used aircraft to bomb it's people? From what I could tell, they have Saudi troops doing the dirty work.
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According to the Russians Libya hasn't used airplanes to bomb its own people, except the armed militias.

There have also been reports that Gadhafi has been getting his mercenaries through an Israeli security contractor with government permission.

I get a sense that he's seen as a reliable guy by a lot of the powers in the region who need his oil - and that the whole thing is startig to look like a US resource grab to take oil that the European powers feel belong to them.

As to using Saudi troops to do the dirty work, you know that Canada and the US have an agreement that allows them to do pretty much the same thing.
 
redrumloa said:
FluffyMcDeath said:
As to using Saudi troops to do the dirty work, you know that Canada and the US have an agreement that allows them to do pretty much the same thing.
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The new agreement has been greeted with suspicion by the left wing in Canada and the right wing in the U.S.


Thank GOD for the right wing in the USA!
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Ya, but just a reminder, both the Canadian left and the American right just happen to be the opposition. That alone could be the deciding factor.
 
The Libyan rebel forces have lost, therefore the US has decided to "agree" to let the UN set up a "no-fly" zone which really means a NATO only fly zone.

Doubtless lots of people will be happy that the US is stepping up to "protect the will of the people" just as there were people happy when NATO stepped in to "protect the people" in the Balkans. History has shown that the Balkan operation was not justified by the facts and was a war for territory (i.e. the US protectorate of Kosovo run by organized crime).

A "no-fly zone" tends to include more than "no-flying" and this one will be no different. Expect the good people of Tripoli to experience NATO bombing for their own good. That city has been peaceful 'till now. Civilians in other cities will get bombed too, more bombed than Gadhafi ever did.
 
I still haven't figured which side you came down on Fluffy.

Did you come down on the side that the US are assholes for letting so many die before we decided to do something?

Or did you come down on the side that the US are assholes because they are agreeing to a no fly zone?

You fool no one McDeath, except maybe yourself! You're no expert on any of this. :roll:
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
A "no-fly zone" tends to include more than "no-flying" and this one will be no different.
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Maybe, maybe not. Libya is no Iraq and certainly no Kosovo. The UN isn't likely to green light any ground bombardments. And Libya is small enough that the US fighters can enforce the no-fly zone without ever entering Libyan air space - which has the obvious benefit that US air craft will not be targeted by SAMs and thus no need to bomb them. However, there are still problems with this no-fly zone. I haven't read up on exactly what the security council passed, but the real question is, when will the no-fly zone be lifted? What if Gadhafi's forces wipe out the resistance using tanks, will the no-fly zone be eliminated once hostilities end? Or will it be kept in place until Gadhafi leaves the country? The problem with a no-fly zone is that it can't on it's own change things on the ground. If the resistance may in fact be too small to counter even Gadhafi's ground forces, then what? I suspect that weapons will stream into parts of Libya, possibly by the CIA but also possibly from other Arab nations such as Egypt. But most troubling would be if Mujaheddin decided to make Libya their home. Then the US would have to stop and wonder who exactly are they helping.

Expect the good people of Tripoli to experience NATO bombing for their own good.
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I'm hoping the US has learned from that mistake and isn't ready to repeat it.
 
Glaucus said:
FluffyMcDeath said:
A "no-fly zone" tends to include more than "no-flying" and this one will be no different.
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Maybe, maybe not. Libya is no Iraq and certainly no Kosovo. The UN isn't likely to green light any ground bombardments.
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The resolution authorizes all necessary measures to protect civilians.

That basically means that the US has been given the right to destroy anything on the ground that it can justifiably claim would be a danger to civilians. Expect collateral damage. Expect bombed convoys. Expect most of the important civilian aeras to be oil facilities. Expect all the usual. The only thing the US doesn't get is boots on the ground.

I suspect that weapons will stream into parts of Libya, possibly by the CIA but also possibly from other Arab nations such as Egypt. But most troubling would be if Mujaheddin decided to make Libya their home. Then the US would have to stop and wonder who exactly are they helping.
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The CIA is already doing its job. They have been backing and aiding opposition groups in Libya for decades (just as they did in the Balkans). They don't need US ground forces because they already have CIA backed local ground forces. Now they have the excuse to use their own air power (something they weren't able to give their friends because it's hard to smuggle fighter jets into the country and keep them hushed up while practicing your flight skills). The US has been playing the aloof observer role waiting for the death toll to rise so that it will look like they are being forced to act rather than being eager to act. Gadhafi's military response was so rapid and effective that the US nearly waited too long to play the no-fly zone.

[quote:ccr4inh7]Expect the good people of Tripoli to experience NATO bombing for their own good.
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I'm hoping the US has learned from that mistake and isn't ready to repeat it.[/quote:ccr4inh7]

That wasn't a mistake. It was a success and they are very willing to repeat their successes. Who dies is not the measure, but who wins.
 
@Fluffy
Right... Everything that has ever gone wrong has been caused by the USA.
 
redrumloa said:
@Fluffy
Right... Everything that has ever gone wrong has been caused by the USA.
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Not even close to what I said. I don't want to get into any psycho analysis as to the possible motivations behind this response (it's an emotional outburst more than it is a statement based on any kind of fact) but I'm responding only to point out that the statement you made there was hyperbolic and does not reflect anything I have said.
 
Glaucus said:
FluffyMcDeath said:
A "no-fly zone" tends to include more than "no-flying" and this one will be no different.
Click to expand...
Maybe, maybe not. Libya is no Iraq and certainly no Kosovo. The UN isn't likely to green light any ground bombardments. And Libya is small enough that the US fighters can enforce the no-fly zone without ever entering Libyan air space - which has the obvious benefit that US air craft will not be targeted by SAMs and thus no need to bomb them. However, there are still problems with this no-fly zone. I haven't read up on exactly what the security council passed, but the real question is, when will the no-fly zone be lifted? What if Gadhafi's forces wipe out the resistance using tanks, will the no-fly zone be eliminated once hostilities end? Or will it be kept in place until Gadhafi leaves the country? The problem with a no-fly zone is that it can't on it's own change things on the ground. If the resistance may in fact be too small to counter even Gadhafi's ground forces, then what? I suspect that weapons will stream into parts of Libya, possibly by the CIA but also possibly from other Arab nations such as Egypt. But most troubling would be if Mujaheddin decided to make Libya their home. Then the US would have to stop and wonder who exactly are they helping.

Expect the good people of Tripoli to experience NATO bombing for their own good.
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I'm hoping the US has learned from that mistake and isn't ready to repeat it.
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I have no idea what will happen but I AM glad that some restraint has been shown.

I really am sick and tired of "Americans" running into a place like a bunch of hotheaded cowboys.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
redrumloa said:
@Fluffy
Right... Everything that has ever gone wrong has been caused by the USA.
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Not even close to what I said. I don't want to get into any psycho analysis as to the possible motivations behind this response (it's an emotional outburst more than it is a statement based on any kind of fact) but I'm responding only to point out that the statement you made there was hyperbolic and does not reflect anything I have said.
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Maybe I misread you comments in reference to Libya, if I did I apologize. My point is this whole Libya issue appears to be a no win for the USA. If the USA did nothing, people would say there is no strategic need and the USA is evil for letting such suffering go on. The USA agrees to impose a no fly zone and people assume they will start targeting civilians and only want to seize oil fields.

Me? I've always preferred the idea of an isolationist USA. That is probably near impossible in 2011, but I would prefer it.
 
[youtube:34omdkcu]R325K6alVlA[/youtube:34omdkcu]
 
I have to say I'm pretty disappointed. This attack on Libya makes no sense to me. No matter the outcome the Europeans and the US will look bad to those in the region because it's inevitable that civilians will be killed. Personally, I think the right thing to do in this case was to do nothing at all if for no other reason then to be consistent with all the other wars going on in the world. And in such a case consistency is important. Once again the West is acting like all it cares about is oil. In the end it will all backfire - the civilians will be killed and hate towards us Westerners will be renewed. Oh joy.

Still, I find it interesting that the French are so eager this time. The first shots fired were French, not US.
 
Just as expected, it didn't take long at all for, 'no fly zone' to turn into, 'bomb the {bleep} out of Libya zone.'
 
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