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Fade

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Global warmingin my front yard this morning. Four inches by the end of the day. No big deal for folks up north, but this is central Alabama.

By the way Wilse; there is now snow on the ground in all 50 states of the US at the same time. That's the first time that has happened in my lifetime.

Local my ass!
 
USA is ~2% of the world.

And snow may be prefectly well related to climate change. Percipitation comes from mositure in the air. The warmer the air the more moisture. If the average temp is 15 and it warms to an average of 20 one should expect more snow.
 
faethor said:
USA is ~2% of the world.

And snow may be prefectly well related to climate change. Percipitation comes from mositure in the air. The warmer the air the more moisture. If the average temp is 15 and it warms to an average of 20 one should expect more snow.

from the “weather is not climate unless it supports global warming department” :roflmao:

The global warming question is "how does increased levels of CO2 (ppm) in the atmosphere cause bigger snow storms?" A snow storm requires that a lot of atmospheric cooling has to occur. Guess with all this snow at least the polar bears won't be endangered now.
 
metalman said:
from the “weather is not climate unless it supports global warming department” :roflmao:
You're right your claim is a joke. Climate Change is an event over time. One week of snowfall by itself neither supports nor denies global warming. It's part of a series of changes over time. Thanks for the humor.

The global warming question is "how does increased levels of CO2 (ppm) in the atmosphere cause bigger snow storms?"
IMO your understanding is backwards. One first asks the question to why bigger snow storms and tracks down the causes. It may possibly be increased CO2.

A snow storm requires that a lot of atmospheric cooling has to occur.
Or warming. Antarctica for example has an average temp of -60. If it were to warm to -10 the air would hold more moisture. The result would be more snowfall. Why? Cuz we're below the freezing point of water. A reason Antarctica is a desert is because it's so cold. The air holds very small amounts of moisture and is unwilling to give up the moisture.
 
Fade said:
By the way Wilse; there is now snow on the ground in all 50 states of the US at the same time.
Technically, 49. Hawaii has no snow. Mauna Kea often has snow much of the year but it's currently bare.
Local my ass!

In the southern hemisphere it's been much warmer. They have summer there, you know. Summer is a local phenomenon.

Judging by snow is problematic though. It is a binary kind of thing. Either it's cold enough to snow or it isn't but the actual temperature difference needn't be that great. It's like the outcome of the elections. You're either a Red state (communist) or a Blue state (moarchist), even though the actual cast votes are generally closer to 50-50 which means that, no matter the outcome, almost 50% of the population loses. Of course, the reality is that 98% of the population loses because 2% of the population owns both parties. Still, it's a compelling fantasy and it's better to let the people think they have control by voting rather than have them do something about actually participating in government.

Like red/blue maps, snow maps are similarly bad for seeing what's going on - except that it does give an extent for a specific condition. It highlights the areas that are usually above snow temperature, but ti doesn't show the difference in areas that normally have snow but may be warmer this year but still below snow temp.

50% of the US is normally covered by snow at this time. Snow coverage at the moment is about 67%. Yes, that is quite a jump in coverage but it doesn't inform much about the conditions in places that are snowy normally.

Currently the arctic has snow, but it is a warm year. Some communities have been having trouble getting supplies in because the ice roads are too weak to get trucks along.

Much of the northern hemisphere seems to have been covered with cold air that seems to have fallen out of the arctic for some reason. Similarly the arctic has warmed. We'll have to see if the net effect is overall colder or not.
 
metalman said:
from the “weather is not climate unless it supports global warming department” :roflmao:

So are you making the claim that the earth is cooling? Are we heading for an ice age?
Will you have to change your claim if it doesn't snow on Fade next year?
 
Fade said:
By the way Wilse; there is now snow on the ground in all 50 states of the US at the same time. That's the first time that has happened in my lifetime.
That'd be 49 states. There is currently no snow in Hawaii. There is a ski hill on top of the big island. It doesn't look that impressive of a run, IMO. Currently has no snow.

And '10 minutes' of snow in Florida? That's statistically insignificant when one is talking Climate, as that's a trend over a number of years.
 
faethor said:
Climate Change is an event over time. One week of snowfall by itself neither supports nor denies global warming. It's part of a series of changes over time.

Come on faethor, be realistic here. Every time we had a hurricane hit Florida in 04 and 05, we heard it was proof of Global Warming. Then in mid07-late08 we had a semi-drought in the SE, it was claimed as proof of Global Warming. Every time I turn on the TV I am being told every single isolated event
is proof of global warming. Global warming predictions did not have increased snowfall in their forecast, until we got record snowfall. Then magically they claim this is proof.
 
Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past

http://www.independent.co.uk/environmen ... 24017.html

Monday, 20 March 2000

Britain's winter ends tomorrow with further indications of a striking environmental change
: snow is starting to disappear from our lives.

Britain's winter ends tomorrow with further indications of a striking environmental change: snow is starting to disappear from our lives.

Sledges, snowmen, snowballs and the excitement of waking to find that the stuff has settled outside are all a rapidly diminishing part of Britain's culture, as warmer winters - which scientists are attributing to global climate change
- produce not only fewer white Christmases, but fewer white Januaries and Februaries.

The first two months of 2000 were virtually free of significant snowfall in much of lowland Britain, and December brought only moderate snowfall in the South-east. It is the continuation of a trend that has been increasingly visible in the past 15 years: in the south of England, for instance, from 1970 to 1995 snow and sleet fell for an average of 3.7 days, while from 1988 to 1995 the average was 0.7 days. London's last substantial snowfall was in February 1991.

Global warming, the heating of the atmosphere by increased amounts of industrial gases, is now accepted as a reality by the international community. Average temperatures in Britain were nearly 0.6°C higher in the Nineties than in 1960-90, and it is estimated that they will increase by 0.2C every decade over the coming century. Eight of the 10 hottest years on record occurred in the Nineties.

However, the warming is so far manifesting itself more in winters which are less cold than in much hotter summers. According to Dr David Viner, a senior research scientist at the climatic research unit (CRU) of the University of East Anglia,within a few years winter snowfall will become "a very rare and exciting event".

"Children just aren't going to know what snow is," he said.

Read the whole article!! It is a hoot!!!
 
redrumloa said:
Come on faethor, be realistic here. Every time we had a hurricane hit Florida in 04 and 05, we heard it was proof of Global Warming.
Which was silly media event not scientifically claimed.

Global warming predictions did not have increased snowfall in their forecast, until we got record snowfall. Then magically they claim this is proof.
AFAIK no one has scientifically claimed that the record snowfall as proof of Global Warming. What I have seen is this is El Nina related.

IMO the problem here is the political vs the science.
 
redrumloa said:
Snowfalls are now just a thing of the past
Read the whole article!! It is a hoot!!!

Hmm... "Heavy snow will return occasionally, says Dr Viner, but when it does we will be unprepared. "We're really going to get caught out. Snow will probably cause chaos in 20 years time," he said."

Seems to me the title is an oversimplification. Most are, their point is to grab the reader's eye.

The statement was about the UK, not world. Turns out in the 00s UK snowfall has been nearly non-existent.
 
Unusual weather is the climate becoming more chaotic, a sure sign of some change.

The trouble with chaotic systems is they are, well, chaotic, Global warming could actually make the world a lot colder.


Rather weirdly, winter 2009 in the Northern hemisphere is apparently the warmest on record, go figure...
 
redrumloa said:
faethor said:
Climate Change is an event over time. One week of snowfall by itself neither supports nor denies global warming. It's part of a series of changes over time.

Come on faethor, be realistic here. Every time we had a hurricane hit Florida in 04 and 05, we heard it was proof of Global Warming. Then in mid07-late08 we had a semi-drought in the SE, it was claimed as proof of Global Warming. Every time I turn on the TV I am being told every single isolated event
is proof of global warming. Global warming predictions did not have increased snowfall in their forecast, until we got record snowfall. Then magically they claim this is proof.

Its “Climate change” in the winter; “Global Warming” in the summer. Remember to change terms, just like setting your clocks for daylight savings time, forward in spring and back in the fall. :roflmao:
 
faethor said:
redrumloa said:
Global warming predictions did not have increased snowfall in their forecast, until we got record snowfall. Then magically they claim this is proof.
AFAIK no one has scientifically claimed that the record snowfall as proof of Global Warming. What I have seen is this is El Nina related.

Is snow is a thing of the past due to global warming or is more snow now due to global warming?? which is it???

Global warming is so powerful, there is nothing it can't do. Heat wave or blizzard, flood or drought the cause is always claimed to be "global warming: aka "climate change".
 
metalman said:
Is snow is a thing of the past due to global warming or is more snow now due to global warming?? which is it???

Global warming is so powerful, there is nothing it can't do. Heat wave or blizzard, flood or drought the cause is always claimed to be "global warming: aka "climate change".
Strawman, strawman, strawman. Global warming is predicted to raise global average temps by only one or tow degrees in the near future. Even still, this increased temp will be most pronounced in the polar regions and less so on the equator. The main reason this is a worry is that the polar ice caps will melt and thus release a lot of fresh water into the ocean which will change it's chemical make up along with the global sea level. More moist air from the polar region is likely to cause more storms elsewhere. Eventually if the polar ice caps melt completely, the overall temp of the global regions will rise rapidly due to the laws of simple physics. So, if you want a good laugh, laugh at this: while the Southern US is being dumped on, the Polar snow caps are still shrinking:

Despite cool temperatures, ice extent remains low

Despite cool temperatures over most of the Arctic Ocean in January, Arctic sea ice extent continued to track below normal. By the end of January, ice extent dropped below the extent observed in January 2007. Ice extent was unusually low in the Atlantic sector of the Arctic, the one major area of the Arctic where temperatures remained warmer than normal.

20100203_Figure1_thumb.png


Analysis of data from the last three decades shows that the summer Arctic sea ice melt season now lasts nearly a month longer than it did in the 1980s. A later start of freeze-up and an earlier start to the melt season both contribute to the change. A recent paper by Thorsten Markus at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center suggests that the later freeze-up is the dominant factor lengthening the melt season. The analysis shows that, on average, autumn freeze-up starts nearly four days later each decade. Extensive open water at the end of the summer melt season, combined with warmer autumns, delay the autumn freeze-up. The larger expanses of open water absorb more solar energy, and before ice can form again, that heat must be released back to the atmosphere. This trend is most pronounced in the Beaufort, Chukchi and Laptev seas.
 
Glaucus said:
the Polar snow caps are still shrinking:

Despite cool temperatures, ice extent remains low

Despite cool temperatures over most of the Arctic Ocean in January, Arctic sea ice extent continued to track below normal. By the end of January, ice extent dropped below the extent observed in January 2007. Ice extent was unusually low in the Atlantic sector of the Arctic, the one major area of the Arctic where temperatures remained warmer than normal.

20100203_Figure1_thumb.png

Globally, the snowcover is greater than normal.
FSUSNOWCOVER.JPG
 
metalman said:
Glaucus said:
the Polar snow caps are still shrinking:
Globally, the snowcover is greater than normal.
The polar caps continue to lose area, and in recent NASA work volume, over the last few decades. This is also happening ot 95% of the glaciers. This goes back to what is weather and what is climate. While related they are not the same. Weather is point in time event for an area. Climate is a worldwide event over many years, nee decades.

Do you expect the global snow cover to stick around for decades and be the new climate?
 
@Fade

Dontcha know that the following is concrete proof of Mann made global warming:

Cold winters
Warm winters
Wind
Snow in the winter
Drought
Normal weather
Unusual weather
Warm summers
Rain
Jellyfish migration
Sun spots
No sun spots
Solar flares
Clouds
Earthquakes (yes, I read that once)

Really, if EVERYTHING that happens proves an argument then someone is on to a winner.
 
smithy said:
@Fade

Dontcha know that the following is concrete proof of Mann made global warming:

Cold winters
Warm winters
Wind
Snow in the winter
Drought
Normal weather
Unusual weather
Warm summers
Rain
Jellyfish migration
Sun spots
No sun spots
Solar flares
Clouds
Earthquakes (yes, I read that once)

Really, if EVERYTHING that happens proves an argument then someone is on to a winner.

Increase in number of hurricanes and intensity
Decrease in number of hurricanes and intensity

I have read both, plus too many more to add to this list. ..and people wonder why I object to Al Gore's fictional movie being shown in schools as science fact.
 
smithy said:
@Fade

Dontcha know that the following is concrete proof of Mann made global warming:

Cold winters
Warm winters
Wind
Snow in the winter
Drought
Normal weather
Unusual weather
Warm summers
Rain
Jellyfish migration
Sun spots
No sun spots
Solar flares
Clouds
Earthquakes (yes, I read that once)

Really, if EVERYTHING that happens proves an argument then someone is on to a winner.

You're mixing your causes and effects there. Your list would have been better if it was shorter.
 
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