Middle East Aid flotilla attacked by gunships-several dead.

[the_leander]

I was actually amazed at the difference in tone of the beebs report verses both ITV and CH4's. To say one sided would be a gross understatement.

If you'd seen BBC coverage of the all-out attacks on Lebanon and Gaza, you would not be remotely surprised by this.

Oh I saw it, what I didn't do was sit down and do a (more or less) side by side comparison of the them all. Tbh it was their coverage of the Lebanon flash war that caused me to turn them off as far as news coverage went and switch purely to internet based news sources.

 

[Glaucus]

For what it's worth, I read about it on the BBC and I still got the sense that Israel was way beyond it's legal limits here. No way to sugar coat this one.

 

[Glaucus]

But yeah, Turkey has played an absolute blinder with regard the media on this one.

Yes Turkey has, but let's make no mistake about it, Turkey is no white night. In fact, at almost exactly the same that this raid was carried out by Israel, Kurds attacked a Turkish position inside Turkey, killing several soldiers. Of course the irony is that everyone is upset with Israel for oppressing the Palestinians, yet we're treating Turkey like some kind of hero when they are guilty of doing the same to the Kurds.

The Middle East is messed up. More messed up then most people think.

 

[Robert]

For what it's worth, I read about it on the BBC and I still got the sense that Israel was way beyond it's legal limits here. No way to sugar coat this one.

Perhaps not but when the story was first breaking the broadcast channel certainly made a valiant attempt.

There's been a noticeable shift since then - someone must have given them the nod.

 

[Robert]

let's make no mistake about it, Turkey is no white night.

A somewhat empty statement to be fair. Show me a country who is.

 

[the_leander]

Of course the irony is that everyone is upset with Israel for oppressing the Palestinians, yet we're treating Turkey like some kind of hero when they are guilty of doing the same to the Kurds.

Whilst Turkey does indeed treat the Kurds unforgivably (their Iluzu dam project, for instance) I really don't think that it is on nearly the same scale or level of brutality as the conditions faced by those in Gaza, unless you're saying Turkey has decided it too is going to recreate a living replica of the Warsaw Ghetto in it's territory....

That's why everyone is upset, pick any country in the region and you can find incident after incident where that country acted brutally toward a perceived enemy. Israel however takes it one stage further and turns that brutality into an art form.

Finally, I think you'd be hard pressed to show anyone as calling Turkey a hero about this. Only that their media efforts were very well done to counter the usual Israeli "If you disagree with Israel you're an anti semite" message. Views on Turkey that I've seen so far range from that to the Turks having been responsible for provoking this.

 

[Glaucus]

A somewhat empty statement to be fair. Show me a country who is.

That was an intentional over exaggeration. My point is that Turkey and Israel have a lot more in common then Turkey would like to admit at this moment.

 

[Glaucus]

Of course the irony is that everyone is upset with Israel for oppressing the Palestinians, yet we're treating Turkey like some kind of hero when they are guilty of doing the same to the Kurds.

Whilst Turkey does indeed treat the Kurds unforgivably (their Iluzu dam project, for instance) I really don't think that it is on nearly the same scale or level of brutality as the conditions faced by those in Gaza, unless you're saying Turkey has decided it too is going to recreate a living replica of the Warsaw Ghetto in it's territory....

No, the Turks don't have time to set up a massive ghetto, they're too busy building a massive cemetery. If you do some reading on the Turkish-Kurdish war you'll see that tens of thousands have been killed. Overall, Turkey is probably far worse then Israel. Perhaps if Turks were Jewish people would notice their crimes more.

 

[the_leander]

Overall, Turkey is probably far worse then Israel.

Citation needed.

Perhaps if Turks were Jewish people would notice their crimes more.

Yes I forgot, anyone who disagrees with Israel is an Anti Semite, my bad. :roll:

 

[Robert]

Overall, Turkey is probably far worse then Israel.

A very bold statement. I can only assume you are basing this purely on the number of dead, in which case the US would surely be the worst of recent times? (Ably assisted by my government.)

Perhaps if Turks were Jewish people would notice their crimes more.

Ah, the old "anti-semite" chestnut - how disappointing, Mike.
(And, I have to say, surprising.)

 

[the_leander]

Just watching the CH4 news, it seems there is to be another Aid Convoy sent to Gaza and this time Turkey are saying that they will be sending a warship to accompany it.

A very dangerous escalation.

 

[Robert]

Just watching the CH4 news, it seems there is to be another Aid Convoy sent to Gaza and this time Turkey are saying that they will be sending a warship to accompany it.

A very dangerous escalation.

Watched that myself. And Mark Regev who is even more insidious than Ari Fleischer at his worst.

 

[the_leander]

Just watching the CH4 news, it seems there is to be another Aid Convoy sent to Gaza and this time Turkey are saying that they will be sending a warship to accompany it.

A very dangerous escalation.

Watched that myself. And Mark Regev who is even more insidious than Ari Fleischer at his worst.

Agreed.

In fact I haven't seen such a badly botched PR piece by an official spokesperson this side of Scientology.

 

[Glaucus]

Ah, the old "anti-semite" chestnut - how disappointing, Mike.
(And, I have to say, surprising.)

Look, I'm one of the first to criticize Israel for what it does, I'm just not sure why it seems Turkey gets a free pass for all it's misdeeds. And I'm not implying that people on THIS forum are anti-semite, but I think that overall the Arab world has placed their focus disproportionately on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, yet few seem to care enough about the plight of their fellow sunni Kurds. Do you not find this odd?

 

[the_leander]

Ah, the old "anti-semite" chestnut - how disappointing, Mike.
(And, I have to say, surprising.)

Look, I'm one of the first to criticize Israel for what it does, I'm just not sure why it seems Turkey gets a free pass for all it's misdeeds. And I'm not implying that people on THIS forum are anti-semite, but I think that overall the Arab world has placed their focus disproportionately on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, yet few seem to care enough about the plight of their fellow sunni Kurds. Do you not find this odd?

Two key differences I suppose: The Palestinians understand and are adept at getting their message out and they're on the brink of being exterminated (at least in Gaza).

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Just watching the CH4 news, it seems there is to be another Aid Convoy sent to Gaza and this time Turkey are saying that they will be sending a warship to accompany it.

A very dangerous escalation.

It's a test of NATO and a test of US/Israel relations and a test of Israel. If it escalates it may also flush out some nuclear weapons. Meanwhile Israel will be testing the loyalty of its "allies" or vassals more likely. Why would powerful nations align themselves with a tiny rogue like Israel if Israel didn't have something on them?

Maybe there are some of those ambiguous Israeli nukes sitting in containers secreted in major cities of western powers by those notorious Israeli "moving companies". Surely the US has Saudi Arabia, Qatar & Iraq. Do they really need to keep a trouble maker like Israel? What gives?

 

[Glaucus]

If Turkey does indeed go through with a Navy escort, I suspect Israel would back down or negotiate some kind of deal where they (or some third party like the UN) will be able inspect the ships for weapons. Aside from that I doubt Israel would attempt anything against the Turkish Navy - at least in international water.

Of course, if Turkish Naval ships enter Israeli waters, that could pose problems for Turkey on a legal front. For example, NATO members may not be obligated to rush to Turkey's defense if Turkey ships make the first act of aggression by crossing into Israeli waters. If they could somehow get themselves a UN flag however, that might change things.

Either way, this is the most significant development in the whole Israel-Palestine conflict in decades.

 

[Glaucus]

So, will this incident cause Israeli's to rethink their blockade on Gaza? This Israeli journalist seems to hope so: Predictable Israeli fiasco

 

[the_leander]

Of course, if Turkish Naval ships enter Israeli waters, that could pose problems for Turkey on a legal front.

The problem is with this situation, where are Israels recognised sea boundaries?

Does Gaza have its own recognised sea lanes etc?

The whole thing with regard this situation is a mess legally that needed sorting out a long, long time ago with each side bawwwing about the latest incident whilst claiming themselves free of responsibility.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Of course, if Turkish Naval ships enter Israeli waters, that could pose problems for Turkey on a legal front.

It is possible to sail to Gaza without going through Israeli waters. Just go through Palestinian waters.

But if the Turks were attacked and NATO failed to respond then it would make some of the smaller parties reevaluate the value of membership and maybe start considering defense pact with more serious powers.