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Citation needed on both counts I think. Those are two serious allegations.
Middle school yearbook groups Adolph Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, George W. Bush
- Thread starter redrumloa
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Citation needed on both counts I think. Those are two serious allegations.
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Slobodan shouldn't be in that company. He is so far down the list. Remember that NATO was bombing Yugoslavia at this time and had been funding Bosnian dissident groups to destabilize Yugoslavia so Bush 41 should be ahead of Slobodan on the list - he killed more. He also killed tens of thousands of RETREATING Iraqi soldiers in the first gulf war after they fled Kuwait.
Bush/Cheney have caused more than a million dead in Iraq (according to the Lancet study which the administration called "discredited" but which was never actually discredited).
Slobodan was not trying to expand an empire, he was defending Serbs in a civil war that was stoked by US intelligence. The fact that he appears on your list suggests how powerful the PR is it is politically expedient to demonize him but his actual actions are utterly undeserving of such attention. Churchill was a worse criminal but he was on the winning side
so all is forgiven.
Truman nuked two Japanese cities despite the fact that the Japanese had been trying to surrender all year. Truman's a hero.
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It was discredited certainly in the public eye, even if the methodology used in Iraq was identical to previous conflicts. This same methodology puts the estimated death toll of the kosovo war at around 12,000. Small potatoes compared to the others in the list, but by no measure insignificant. And yes, I would agree with you that Bush/Cheney should be on the list (and with that - the nagging feeling is gone), with Blair being slung in the same class as Slobodan.
I'll accept that there was probably US intelligence involvement behind the scenes, but what Slobodan did went far, far beyond defence.
He's a man who signed off on one of the largest acts of ethnic cleansing in European history since WW2, so I'm sorry, but imho that does make him worthy of note, even if he has the smallest body count of those listed to his name.
I know, gassing the Kurds and no, I don't forgive (and I suspect neither do the Kurds). At the same time, he inspired hope in a nation that might otherwise have given in to possibly the single most evil regime in human history.
Hirohito might have been putting out feelers on the quiet to the Soviets, but the government of the day soundly rejected the Potsdam ultimatum that was delivered shortly before those two bombs.
It should also be noted that the firebombing of Japanese cities killed far more then the nukes did.
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Except he didn't do it. The atrocities were the invention of US propaganda to justify NATO entry into the region to alter the map of eastern Europe. That is not just my opinion, there are serious reasons to doubt the US line and people I know from Serbia have very different opinions from the one you hold. Slobodan was held in the Hague for a long tme but, fortunately for the US, just before the trial he seems to have died.
NATO bombed to create Kosovo (now Kosova). After handing political control over to the local organized crime lords who had helped start the war by sniping at civilians in Sarajevo (and who have also been accused of organ trafficking), the US established Camp Bondsteel as a huge American military base in the Balkans.
It was actually a Serbian friend who pointed out to me, before the Libyan situation, that the same characters that had worked to destabilize Yugoslavia and start the war were at work in Libya too. There are games being played.
China and Russia play games too, but in the current world there is only one power in the world that can back its games up with the fire power of it's forces and all the forces of its vassal states in NATO.
Genocide was to Milosovic what weapons of mass destruction were to Saddam.
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The generals weren't particularly put out by the atomic bombs. The Japanese had seen many of their cities utterly destroyed by firebombing as you pointed out. They didn't perceive the atomic bombs to be any order of escalation over the kind of bombings they had already sustained and didn't see them as impacting their fighting ability any more adversely that the aforementioned fire-bombings.
While the Japanese were negotiating with the Soviets it was to keep them out of the war. The Soviets declared war on Japan on August 9th and the Japanese almost immediately decided to capitulate to America.
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People from Japan maintain to this day that the Sandakan death marches and biological warfare against chinese villages never happened either. Guess all those POW's and Chinese are all a bunch of liars.
The Lancet disagrees with you, or are you now going to dismiss their estimate of 12,000 people killed (of which around 9000 were ethnic Albanians according to later studies)as those in the US dismissed their findings in Iraq that you were just defending?
And I suppose all those mass graves were infact just the worlds grisliest department store mannequin dumping ground... Right.
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That was Clinton.
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The funny thing is, even with George W. Bush in the equation, I'm not sure I'd be able to put any modern president in that short list. Sure, some think Obama sucks. Sure. Most people absolutely agree that GWB sucked. Problem is, I haven't been around for 200 years, and I'm fairly certain that during that time, we've had some truly shit Presidents.
Good thing about that is, we seem to have survived them all so far. Difference is, in the world of Twitter and Facebook, it is -- or at least seems t0 be -- that each President's every move is more closely watched and dissected by couch critics and wannabe "journalists" using their position to promote their own agenda.
Bush. Clinton. Bush. Obama. Next Guy. We'll either survive, or we won't. Preparing for the worst is wise, but worrying about it gets me nothing but gas and a headache.
Wayne
Good thing about that is, we seem to have survived them all so far. Difference is, in the world of Twitter and Facebook, it is -- or at least seems t0 be -- that each President's every move is more closely watched and dissected by couch critics and wannabe "journalists" using their position to promote their own agenda.
Bush. Clinton. Bush. Obama. Next Guy. We'll either survive, or we won't. Preparing for the worst is wise, but worrying about it gets me nothing but gas and a headache.
Wayne
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And Americans still claim that the atomic bombs saved lives ... sure, I understand your point.
No, the graves are full, but who filled them - who is to blame?
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Given that these groups of people have been butchering one another pretty much since the introduction of the Abrahamaic religions I'd personally go with Occams razor and say: The other lot. Just as they in turn were chopped up in retaliation once our lads were on the ground.
And by no means do I think this crap is over. Too much bad blood over too many generations I think.