Mississippi voting on amendment to declare fertilized egg a person

[Robert]

If you all hate it that much, must be a half way decent bill.

Haha - touché, sir!

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

McCain did not look like all that good of an alternative Obama, I said it then. In hindsight I can't see how McCain could have been worse than Obama.

When the train goes off the bridge it doesn't matter who you put in the driver's seat - the passengers are effed all the same. Whoever got to be president would be surrounded by "advisors" telling him what to do and the advisors all come from the rentier class. I McCain was the president he'd have had to do exactly the same and if he didn't then he'd have had a heart attack or something and his genius Vice President Palin would have giggled her way through the rest of the term obediently doing whatever was necessary to get a bigger house and a better wardrobe.

 

[cecilia]

So you are saying the law should say a woman gets to decide when a baby is a human? If a women gets assaulted on the way to an abortion mill and miscarries, the person assaulted is only charged with battery and not murder?

Sounds like everything is so cut and dried to you that full term partial birth abortion is A-Ok or delivering a live birth child and killing it before the doctor cuts the umbilical cord is OK too because life is so black & white? I guess the women who give birth to live babies in public bathrooms and let the babies drown in the toilet is OK too.

Everything is so neat and tidy in a black & white world.

-Edit-
Keep in mind that I think the Mississippi amendment is probably off base.

in MY world I would never dream of telling another women what she should do. i would consider it an insult.

why do YOU think the government or anyone outside of a woman's life (doctor, family) should interfere?

what is "cut and dried" is that while a fetus is INSIDE a real human being, that human being and no one else decides what is supposed to happen.

to do otherwise would make that human being a slave.

 

[the_leander]

what is "cut and dried" is that while a fetus is INSIDE a real human being, that human being and no one else decides what is supposed to happen.

to do otherwise would make that human being a slave.

The alternative, where women have no choice and live in a strict, authoritarian society is pretty obvious:

And ending:

Yeah, this is totally about "saving lives"...

 

[redrumloa]

Yeah, this is totally about "saving lives"...

stabbing scissors into the back of the fetus head and sucking brains out is a wonderful thing in the_leander's world

It is quite simple. If you kill a baby, are you a hero or a murderer?

-Edit-
If you are not a parent, don't bother replying.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

It is quite simple. If you kill a baby, are you a hero or a murderer?

Depends. Is it driving in a convoy under a white flag?

 

[the_leander]

stabbing scissors into the back of the fetus head and sucking brains out is a wonderful thing in the_leander's world

Please tell me where I have said that. Go on, I'll wait.

If not kindly do one with your insinuations.

It is quite simple. If you kill a baby, are you a hero or a murderer?

And who is talking about babies? IE a self sustaining newborns outside of the womb?

Emotive language doesn't wash with me sunshine.

-Edit-
If you are not a parent, don't bother replying.

Parenthood is irrelevant to stopping women being reduced to the status of cattle.

 

[Robert]

If you are not a parent, don't bother replying.

Why? Is it only parents who are allowed an opinion?

 

[redrumloa]

And who is talking about babies? IE a self sustaining newborns outside of the womb?

A fetus is a baby, period. A baby born prematurely in the early 2nd trimester could survive and live a normal life.

Parenthood is irrelevant to stopping women being reduced to the status of cattle.

No true parent (not sperm donation) would claim an unborn child was just a lump of flesh. Very early on there is brain activity and sensations. You can talk to an unborn child and it will respond to your voice. When the child is born, they already know his/her parents voice.

I find this whole argument amazing. Last time I checked, it is pretty well established how pregnancy happens. Don't want a kid? Either keep it in your pants or use a rubber. What a shitty world we live in when stating simple responsibility gets shot down when the alternative is the killing of a baby.

My 2nd oldest child just turned 18 yesterday. I am blessed to have her as I am all of my children. Never once did it cross my mind or my wife's mind to have a doctor shove a vacuum up inside my wife to rip the baby limb from limb.

 

[redrumloa]

Why? Is it only parents who are allowed an opinion?

A true parent who got to see first hand the development of an unborn child would not claim he/she is just a lump of flesh until it is outside of the womb.

 

[the_leander]

A fetus is a baby, period. A baby born prematurely in the early 2nd trimester could survive and live a normal life.

--edit-- rewrote a better response in my next post on this thread that dealt with this in greater detail.

No true parent (not sperm donation) would claim an unborn child was just a lump of flesh.

Having seen the remains of a 10 week old miscarriage first hand (twice, in fact), yes I {bleep} can.

According to your earlier post here however, my ex wife should have been imprisoned for murder the first time around.

Very early on there is brain activity and sensations.

Around 26 weeks.

I find this whole argument amazing. Last time I checked, it is pretty well established how pregnancy happens.

Well thanks to religiously motivated assholes replacing firm, science based education with religious dogma, that information is provided to fewer children now than there used to be.

There's a reason why birth rates amongst teens in red states has gone through the roof in the past 20 years.

Don't want a kid? Either keep it in your pants or use a rubber. What a shitty world we live in when stating simple responsibility gets shot down when the alternative is the killing of a baby.

Oh we're talking responsibility now are we? You mean like a woman wanting to take the pill, or perhaps the contraceptive implant, or maybe an IUD. Or even, if these fail rather than raising their child in poverty or handing it over to the state (which comes out of your taxes) make the ultimate decision (NB it should be noted that the number of abortions even before it was legalised remained fairly stable and did not increase as a result of it being legalised, if anything as a percentage of the population the numbers have actually gone down as more people, with better access to contraceptives have reduced the need).

All of which would be banned (and reverse the trends) under this law.

And I note you're carefully avoiding the whole rape and incest part. Not to mention where a foetus has developmental defects that would not allow it to survive outside of the womb or have much/any quality of life.

Still waiting on you to show where I said that abortions were either noble or wonderful.

 

[faethor]

Parenthood is irrelevant to stopping women being reduced to the status of cattle.

Exactly.

It's a question on how we want society and life to be run. Do we give the responsibility and decision to the parents? The downside is a possibility of abortion. To help offset we give people education so they can make the best informed decisions for themselves. Or do we give the responsibility and decision to the State? The downside here is much, much greater as the feotus and mother then become slaves dictated a direction from the State. There's some fairly horrid things here as we've seen those in Society that dislike abortion so much they try to pass legislation that don't make exception for rape, incest or sanity and life of the mother. I can't think of a greater elimination of freedom than to tell someone they were raped and will die when they have the baby and are ordered to have the baby from the State.

What a shitty world we live in when stating simple responsibility gets shot down when the alternative is the killing of a baby.

It's a tough call do you want freedom of the Mother or subjectation of the Mother? Which is more important a life that's being lived or a possible life that nature itself has a roughly 40% chance of killing before it's born?

I think what's important is we are making inroads in the correct direction. Education is up. Abortions are down, the peak was in the early 80s. Abortions per woman has declined about ~35% since the peak. This is the direction we should head - available and rare. We need to focus on the 'red'states where poverty, teen pregnancy, and abortion rates are higher per person than the 'blue' staes. Perhaps it's time these Reds wised up and used some of the programs that are working in other areas of the nation they share.

 

[the_leander]

A fetus is a baby, period.

The rest of the English speaking world disagrees with you.

A baby born prematurely in the early 2nd trimester could survive and live a normal life.

No, it couldn't, even with the most advanced medical technologies available today the best we can hope for is 24 weeks and that is only 50%.

At 22 weeks the odds are far worse and anything before that you're into lottery winning odds. Even if a child born before 24 weeks does survive, there is a significant chance of mental retardation.

 

[cecilia]

I'm shocked but the amendment has been defeated.

rationality survived.

 

[the_leander]

I'm shocked but the amendment has been defeated.

rationality survived.

As I understand it similar amendments had failed to pass muster on the basis that they made no provision for situations where either the foetus was non viable or the mother's life was at risk (such as ectopic pregnancies) as well as access rights for contraceptives.

That said, I had real doubts that such trifles would have bothered the legislature in Mississippi. I too stand gladly corrected on that point.

But as ever, expect something like this to be barfed up by the various "family" branded groups in the near future.

 

[redrumloa]

I'm shocked but the amendment has been defeated.

rationality survived.

I'm not shocked. Even if passed it would have been overturned.

 

[cecilia]

As I understand it similar amendments had failed to pass muster on the basis that they made no provision for situations where either the foetus was non viable or the mother's life was at risk (such as ectopic pregnancies) as well as access rights for contraceptives.

That said, I had real doubts that such trifles would have bothered the legislature in Mississippi. I too stand gladly corrected on that point.

But as ever, expect something like this to be barfed up by the various "family" branded groups in the near future.

I have no doubt that the religious wackos will be making every attempt to break down the Bill of Rights.