More cyber attacks against Israel's enemies

FluffyMcDeath said:
worldwide the star of David is fading. Public opinion is more negative towards Israel now than it has been in decades. Unleashing stupidly dangerous technologty that can take down industrial and power control system (like nuclear power stations etc.) is the kind of irresponsible power projection from Israel that adds to the impression that it is a rabid dog of a nation that doesn't give a damn what happens to the goyim, so long as the Jews get what they want. Saying that Israel is working with the US on this helps them shed the stigma of being a rogue nation (at least in cyber warfare). The US is a perpetually tarnished brand world wide but everyone knows that it can't yet be brought down but Israel is the little shit that thinks it's "all that" because his Uncle Sam gave him a bunch of guns but the kids in the playground are starting to think that it might be time to teach him a lesson and then all pretend that they don't know who pushed him off the school roof..
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@Fluffy

Multi-national Company seeking highly motivated individuals offering free training for high visibility projects in the US, Israel and France.
 
mcdonalds is hiring too... the wage is barely above death.... no virgins.... nothing to see here...
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Yes, I think they are. You won't see it in our news but worldwide the star of David is fading. Public opinion is more negative towards Israel now than it has been in decades.
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Really? I must have totally missed that. Israel may be hated right now in some areas, but you blame that on Stuxnet??? I think if you were to find an anti-israeli protest anywhere on the planet, and asked them what they hate about Israel, they're likely to give you several long lists of nasty things about Israel and I'd be shocked if stuxnet was on any of them. Unless it's a rally of Israel hating comptuer nerds, most people really have no clue and even if they did wouldn't see the difference between stuxnet and any other malware that's infected their system and are unwilling to do anything about. In other words, common people don't really understand what stuxnet means. I doubt most political leaders do either.

And although you're right that Israel has plenty of enemies, it has plenty of friends as well, many of which are silent. In regards to Iran and it's nuclear ambitions, many nations of that region are secretly rooting for Israel there. Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Jordan are most certainly on Israel's side on that issue as none of them want to see a nucear Iran.

I don't think they asked for it. I don't think they really care. I think Obama did them this favour they didn't ask for so that he could lean on them as ungrateful little shits if they did anything else inconvenient. The newspaper stuff is all theatre for public consumption but I bet the back channels are abuzz.
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Sorry, I just don't see it. Like I said before, the big issue with Israel and it's supporters is Iran and it's nuclear ambitions. The Israeli leadership wants to give Iran a bleeding nose with US fire power. That will be the deciding factor and not a piece of malware that most people have little understanding of. I don't think taking credit for stuxnet will be enough to persuade voters who's other option is a Republican who's eager to be their obedient servant.[/quote]
 
Glaucus said:
Really? I must have totally missed that.
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I know. It's a function of where you live. In North America (including Canada) the big media outlets are mostly owned by Jews and they tend to report stories that are negative regarding Israel. The CBC has gone the same way under Harper (who pledged allegiance to Israel), it's become more business friendly, less worker friendly, and more Israel friendly. However, public opinion isn't as rosy as the media portrait. (link to bbc pdf in the story).
Israel may be hated right now in some areas, but you blame that on Stuxnet???
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You no read good. I didn't say that. I say Stuxnet is not a good thing to cop to when the world ALREADY doesn't trust you, but I think Stuxnet and it's kin IS an issue with governments and industry because everyone depends on technology these days and when someone demonstrates their willingness to use cyber warfare it makes a lot of people nervous and a lot of people just don't trust Israel not to use it on everyone. They are a bit notorious that way.

And although you're right that Israel has plenty of enemies, it has plenty of friends as well, many of which are silent [...] Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Jordan are most certainly on Israel's side on that issue as none of them want to see a nucear Iran.
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Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are all USA. Well, so is Jordan, really.

Sorry, I just don't see it.
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I know and I don't see how much more clear I could make it but c'est la vie. Politics is a messy game.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
I know. It's a function of where you live.
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Ok, let's stop right there and back things up. This thread started off about Obama, Stuxnet and Israel. You said this:
FluffyMcDeath said:
My first thought that it was a favour to the Israelis - Obama claims that the cyber attack was his idea which takes the heat off of Israel
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I said:
Do you really think Israel is feeling the "heat" over this?
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Your response was:
Yes, I think they are.
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And I'm not a good reader?

I say Stuxnet is not a good thing to cop to when the world ALREADY doesn't trust you
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It's like saying stepping on an ant is a bad thing to do when everyone believes you're a murderer. My focus here is on Stuxnet and the impact it has with Israel's public opinion. Israel has done enough things over a long enough time that most people have already made up their minds about it, stuxnet isn't gonna change things either way. "Ya,I was kinda on the fence when Israel murdered all those civilians and took their land, but god damn it, I wanna see them burn because of stuxnet". That's not likely, sorry.

but I think Stuxnet and it's kin IS an issue with governments and industry because everyone depends on technology these days and when someone demonstrates their willingness to use cyber warfare it makes a lot of people nervous and a lot of people just don't trust Israel not to use it on everyone. They are a bit notorious that way.
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Yes, but they certainly aren't the first nor will they be the last. Did you miss the entire fiasco between Russia and Estonia? You haven't noticed all the Eastern block attacks on Western systems? Viruses are always getting into US military facilities, including the command and control centers for attack drones. The RSA & Lockheed Martin were hacked recently. You make it sound like the creators of stuxnet are the modern day embodiment of Prometheus who gave fire to the mere mortals.

Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait are all USA. Well, so is Jordan, really.
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Iraq I'll concede, but I still believe that Saudi Arabia has more influence over the US than Israel does.

I know and I don't see how much more clear I could make it but c'est la vie.
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That's borderline condescending. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't understand. We both have the same facts, we just interpret or weight them differently.
 
Glaucus said:
It's like saying stepping on an ant is a bad thing to do when everyone believes you're a murderer. My focus here is on Stuxnet and the impact it has with Israel's public opinion.
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You have to play to public and government. All communications have a pretext and a subtext. Nobody really cares that much at the higher levels what Israel does to Palestinians. Go ahead, step on ants - we'd probably do the same - but if you try to solve the ant problem with a flame thrower and you set your neighbours garage on fire while you do it then suddenly the whole street starts to wonder whether they should do something about you. Israel demonstrated a capability and a willingness to take out industrial systems - and it leaked. that suddenly becomes a big deal to everyone. Drop WP on Gaza, so what? Any body who IS anybody doesn't live in Gaza. but ALL of the "important" members of the world community needs their industrial control system to work reliably.

Did you miss the entire fiasco between Russia and Estonia?
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Yes, I did. Thanks for pointing it out. Looks like plain old fashioned DDoS, though. It's script kiddie stuff, been around for years and is very annoying but it passes.
The RSA & Lockheed Martin were hacked recently.
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Run of the mill data theft. Has competitive implications but is a pretty traditional activity. Sure, it could cost you a bunch of money, contracts, prestige, etc. but if a virus did something like mess with a nuclear reactor's control system then it could render a couple of states uninhabitable for centuries - and that is a different kind of threat.
That's borderline condescending.
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It's resignation. You don't see the magnitude of the threat the way I do and I can't make you so there is little point going over this ground again and again. I think that there are multiple angles to the story, I think that to leak this story this way took a lot of buy in from a lot of different departments and each of them had to see some advantage to it (not all of them, of course, not everyone can be a winner) and I don't think the decision was taken lightly or made on the spur of the moment. Whenever an official story or intentional leak comes out it's been passed around a bit before hand so everyone can do a look ahead to see how it affects them.
 
Well, perhaps the reason I don't see the magnitude of the threat is because you blow it up just a notch. Stuxnet didn't attak nuclear fascilities but specific centrifugal equipment, much of which isn't inside a nuclear reactor. Not only that, there's nothing in stuxnet that could easily translate to attacking nuclear reactors. In fact, what stuxnet attacks is very specific. The big deal about stuxnet is how well it worked. It contained 4 zero day exploits, but those exploits have been mostly patched. Siemens really needs to clean up their act though. The funny thing about security is that most people are lax about it until they're shown to be vulnerable. Thanks to stuxnet, a repeat of stuxnet is now that much harder.

And don't be so quick to play down the RSA/LM attacks, as that "simple data theft" isn't just a bunch of WoW passwords, it could be blueprints for weapon systems. That's the sort of thing that can have a very real impact to someone somewhere.
 
Glaucus said:
Well, perhaps the reason I don't see the magnitude of the threat is because you blow it up just a notch. Stuxnet didn't attak nuclear fascilities but specific centrifugal equipment, much of which isn't inside a nuclear reactor.
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It's the principle more than anything ... showing that you have the capability and the willingness to attack industrial targets ...

But it is also the very different nature of the weapon. If you drop bombs on Iran then Iran gets hurt but everyone else is fine. It's like dropping bombs on Gaza - nobody cares, but if you drop weaponized bird flu. Conceptually (to the non nerdy who may marvel at the specificity of the code and the coolness of the exploits) computer viruses are the world ending uncontrollable ravaging menaces.

And don't be so quick to play down the RSA/LM attacks, as that "simple data theft" isn't just a bunch of WoW passwords, it could be blueprints for weapon systems. That's the sort of thing that can have a very real impact to someone somewhere.
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But it still wouldn't be anything new. Blueprints have been disappearing for years. It's probably still more likely to have blueprints stolen by a disgruntled guy who 's price has been met than by some hackers.

As to North American sensibilities vis a vis our Middle Eastern "ally" - Gay, OK: Criticizing racism, not OK.
 
In the beginning there was Stuxnet, and Stuxnet begat Flame.
And then there was Gauss.
 
iran... at any cost to the planet... friggin douchebags were gonna allow that thing to go 5 times over operating pressure? nice!!:finger:
 
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