New motor that does away the old internal combustion engine

[cybereye]

Finally someone thinking out of the box to change over 100 year old internal combustion engine. I hope I see that in my lifetime. It seems not that complex and could not see why anyone has not thought of those 75 years ago.
http://www.popsci.com/cars/article/2011 ... on-engines

 

[Glaucus]

That does seem pretty interesting. Although technically, engines without pistons have been available for years: Wankel Engine. Only problem with those is they guzzled gas even though they were pretty tiny.

 

[redrumloa]

That does seem pretty interesting. Although technically, engines without pistons have been available for years: Wankel Engine. Only problem with those is they guzzled gas even though they were pretty tiny.

Yeah the rotary engine in Mazda cars are pretty neat, but not for efficiency.

 

[cecilia]

Müller says the engine can be adapted to run on a variety of fuels, including hydrogen. Having built a small prototype, he hopes to have a 25-kilowatt version ready by the end of this year.

Rui Chen, who studies combustion systems at Loughborough University in the UK, says the design could significantly reduce the weight of a car's power train. "In terms of fuel, the design is much more flexible than a conventional piston engine," he adds.

link

interesting!

lets see more of this sort of thing!

 

[redrumloa]

Müller says the engine can be adapted to run on a variety of fuels, including hydrogen. Having built a small prototype, he hopes to have a 25-kilowatt version ready by the end of this year.

Rui Chen, who studies combustion systems at Loughborough University in the UK, says the design could significantly reduce the weight of a car's power train. "In terms of fuel, the design is much more flexible than a conventional piston engine," he adds.

link

interesting!

lets see more of this sort of thing!

Indeed, very interesting. Hopefully they can integrate this technology into a hybrid car soon. Series hybrid, not parallel hybrid.

 

[faethor]

Müller says the engine can be adapted to run on a variety of fuels, including hydrogen. Having built a small prototype, he hopes to have a 25-kilowatt version ready by the end of this year.

Rui Chen, who studies combustion systems at Loughborough University in the UK, says the design could significantly reduce the weight of a car's power train. "In terms of fuel, the design is much more flexible than a conventional piston engine," he adds.

Seems to me the power is short? Kilowatt is torque*RPM. Converting to HP that's about 35hp. The problems tend to be how to scale the technology and I think they might run into it here too. It'd have to, at best, charge some battery.

Wankels make fine use as a supercharger. Though to supercharge a wankel with a wankel results in the supercharger being 2x the size of the engine. Fun data stuck in my head that only Cliff Clavin would be jealous of.

 

[metalman]

Its a low speed turbine engine, with a pulsed fuel delivery. A wave disk engine works at slightly higher peak temperature, which increases its Thermodynamic efficiency, compared to the efficiency of a piston engine. Engine has no torque, so only practical as the constant rpm power source for an electric generator, or used as a turbo charger.

ASME 2004: RADIAL-FLOW WAVE ROTOR CONCEPTS, UNCONVENTIONAL DESIGNS AND APPLICATIONS

Variations of the wave rotor have been around since the 1950s

 

[cybereye]

Variations of the wave rotor have been around since the 1950s

I never knew that been around that long. Great read on the Doc that you had posted. I have heard about the Wankel Engine as a rotary engine, but I thought wave rotor was new radical thinking until metalman posted the Doc.

 

[faethor]

Its a low speed turbine engine, with a pulsed fuel delivery. A wave disk engine works at slightly higher peak temperature, which increases its Thermodynamic efficiency, compared to the efficiency of a piston engine. Engine has no torque, so only practical as the constant rpm power source for an electric generator, or used as a turbo charger.

Not sure no torque could exist? Torque is the ability to move a mass around a pivot point. They stated they're working on a 25 Kilowatt version. Kilowatts = (torque * RPM) / (a # I don't recall at this moment and don't care to use google) If torque was 0 as you indicate the Kilowatts would be 0. Afterall 0 * any other number is 0. If the torque was 0 and if used directly it would not move a vehicle. If torque was 0 and if used indirectly to it could not charge a battery.

 

[metalman]

Its a low speed turbine engine, with a pulsed fuel delivery. A wave disk engine works at slightly higher peak temperature, which increases its Thermodynamic efficiency, compared to the efficiency of a piston engine. Engine has no torque, so only practical as the constant rpm power source for an electric generator, or used as a turbo charger.

Not sure no torque could exist?

It has very limited torque

On a piston engine, Rpm= hp, torque = cylinder displacement (cubic inches)

so even a small engine can have very high horsepower if you increase the rpm,

So a race car uses a small displacement engine (part of the rules) at extremely high rpm (17000 rpm) for high horsepower

a farm tractor uses a large engine with a very large displacement for high torque, running at low rpm (2500 rpm max)


This is the Continental AV1790 Patton Tank engine that Jay Leno put in a a custom car he had built. The Continental AV1790 is a aluminum block V12, 1792 cu in (19.36 l), 650 bhp @2400rpm, 1250 fp torque @ 2100 rpm

[youtube:1u01qcmc]iQHRNeY9zUU[/youtube:1u01qcmc]

Jay has since modernized the engine, replacing the carburetors with fuel injection, and adding turbochargers

 

[faethor]

Its a low speed turbine engine, with a pulsed fuel delivery. A wave disk engine works at slightly higher peak temperature, which increases its Thermodynamic efficiency, compared to the efficiency of a piston engine. Engine has no torque, so only practical as the constant rpm power source for an electric generator, or used as a turbo charger.

Not sure no torque could exist?

It has very limited torque

On a piston engine, Rpm= hp, torque = cylinder displacement (cubic inches)

Not only very limited torque but also very limited HP.

While a convenient definition I prefer to use something semi-close to the actual definition. Historically I'm a Ford guy so using the Ford 4.6L V8 depending on type of made anywhere from 190-260HP w/ 2valves and higher with 3 or 4 valves. The latest 5.0L makes about 445HP in the Boss but close to 320HP in the truck. Same sized engine and not the same result at the same RPM. And certainly my Saabaru's 2.5L engine at 2K RPM does not make the same horsepower as a 5.0L Boss Mustang at 2K RPM.

Also displacement has a relationship to torque but it isn't torque. All the different 4.6L engine applications make different torque at different rpm. Doesn't matter the rpm the displacement is always the same. If you look at engine characterists you'll find a 'torque curve'. If torque was only displacement it'd not be a curve it'd be a torque line.


Horsepower has an actual definition. 1Horsepower is 33K ft-lbs / minute.
Torque has an actual definition. Torque is rotation x force.

 

[Glaucus]

Well, there are certainly a lot of factors at play here, including the computer controlled fuel maps and timing. Some engines are intentionally retarded for marketing reasons. Look at the Nissan/Infiniti line which tend to use the same 3.5L engine in their sports cars and trucks with very different results.

Back when I was faced with repairing my busted up crankshaft on my Honda Prelude (H22) one option was to replace my crank with that of an older, non-vtec prelude (H23). The difference was that the non-vtec crankshaft had a longer throw, requiring shorter connecting rods and adding to the displacement (magically transforming my 2.2L into a monstrous 2.3L :wink: ) but also increasing bottom end torque. Sounds great right? Great except for the fact that such a setup puts too much stress on itself at high RPM. See, the engines using the crankshaft with the longer throw have a lower red-line, so it's fine, but once you got vtec enabled head you have many reasons to rev that baby as high as you can. So it turns out that most people who have done this conversion have serious engine problems down the line, which is why I didn't bother. They say if you balance the shaft and blueprint the engine you should be ok, but I wasn't gonna go to that trouble for just a little extra torque on a 12 year old car. So I kept it stock and reliable and continue to enjoy revving it up to 7K.

 

[metalman]

On a piston engine, Rpm= hp, torque = cylinder displacement (cubic inches)

Not only very limited torque but also very limited HP.

While a convenient definition I prefer to use something semi-close to the actual definition. Historically I'm a Ford guy so using the Ford 4.6L V8 depending on type of made anywhere from 190-260HP w/ 2valves and higher with 3 or 4 valves. The latest 5.0L makes about 445HP in the Boss but close to 320HP in the truck. Same sized engine and not the same result at the same RPM. And certainly my Saabaru's 2.5L engine at 2K RPM does not make the same horsepower as a 5.0L Boss Mustang at 2K RPM.

Also displacement has a relationship to torque but it isn't torque. All the different 4.6L engine applications make different torque at different rpm. Doesn't matter the rpm the displacement is always the same. If you look at engine characterists you'll find a 'torque curve'. If torque was only displacement it'd not be a curve it'd be a torque line.

Horsepower has an actual definition. 1Horsepower is 33K ft-lbs / minute.
Torque has an actual definition. Torque is rotation x force.

A specific engine has a hp curve and a torque curve, which depends on stroke, displacement, cam, valves, ...., which is why a car and a truck may use the same engine block, but have different crankshafts and cam timing, to obtain the torque & Hp desired for the application its being used. cars optimize the curve for hp, trucks optimize the curve for torque.

If you want 650 hp from a 5.0 liter engine, that is possible, just increase the rpm until you hit 650 on the hp curve.

If you want a 1250 fp torque engine, your not getting it from a 5.0 liter engine, you need more displacement (force), you need a different engine with more displacement.

 

[faethor]

On a piston engine, Rpm= hp

I'm sorry I'll be more straight forward... The actual formula for horsepower is...

HP = Torque * RPM / 5252.

So again while RPM is a factor horsepower is not RPM.



As for the every engine can make 650HP. Let's be fair and say on paper. Real world conditions prevent engines from acheiving that. As the formula shows HP is dependent upon torque. If one has a torque curve that drops off quickly the RPM increase is inadequate to offest those conditions. In the real world cars have bell shapped HP and Torque curves.

In the worst case we'd have a torque of 1 which would require RPMs in excess of 3Million for 650HP. Jet plans spin in the 30K-50K range (from my head didn't verify).

 

[metalman]

[In the worst case we'd have a torque of 1 which would require RPMs in excess of 3Million for 650HP. Jet plans spin in the 30K-50K range (from my head didn't verify).

The Chrysler turbine engine ran at up to 44,500 rpm, built in 1963. 130 bhp (97 kW), 425 pound-feet (576 N·m) of torque
[youtube:2ms1kwec]5IF0VbUb_Ug[/youtube:2ms1kwec]

Chrysler abandoned gas-turbine car development in 1977, as a condition of U.S. government loan guarantees to avoid bankruptcy.

 

[metalman]

[youtube:2bl9d5dm]uf_-IMgla34[/youtube:2bl9d5dm]

Michigan State University Receives $2.5M ARPA-E Award to Build Wave Disc Engine/Generator for Series Hybrid Applications

An engine paired with and electric generator and an electric powertrain, this is the same type system used by diesel electric locomotives. This solves the torque problem of the engine since a electric motor will supply full torque at 0 RPM. Only need a small battery bank to handle surge requirements.

 

[faethor]

This solves the torque problem of the engine since a electric motor will supply full torque at 0 RPM.

I don't see this in the article?

Certainly a confusing statement as torque is the force required to Rotate an object around an axis. The Per Minute measure is the speed at which it can move. If it's at 0 RPM there is no rotation and therefore no torque. Do you mean it can apply full torque immediately from standstill?

If so that may be a problem for an automobile engine. Something has to vary the speed about the only option would be a CVT transmission. It'd probably make a fine generator to supply electricity.

 

[cecilia]

Researchers in Switzerland say a chance discovery may revolutionize hydrogen production by making it more cost-effective.

Water, composed of hydrogen and oxygen, can be broken down and hydrogen gas produced by applying an electrical current in a process known as electrolysis, a particularly slow reaction that can be made more efficient using platinum as a catalyst.

However, platinum is a particularly expensive material that has tripled in price during the last decade, a release from the Ecole Polytechnique Federale de Lausanne said Thursday.

EPFL scientists have discovered that amorphous molybdenum sulphides, which are abundant and inexpensive, are efficient catalysts in electrolysis and hydrogen production cost can be significantly lowered.

The catalysts are stable and compatible with acidic, neutral or basic conditions in water, while allowing faster hydrogen production than other catalysts of the same price, the researchers said.

EPFL researchers made the unexpected discovery during an electrochemical experiment intended to produce a different result.

"It's a perfect illustration of the famous serendipity principle in fundamental research," researcher Xile Hu said. "Thanks to this unexpected result, we've revealed a unique phenomenon."

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Certainly a confusing statement as torque is the force required to Rotate an object around an axis. The Per Minute measure is the speed at which it can move. If it's at 0 RPM there is no rotation and therefore no torque. Do you mean it can apply full torque immediately from standstill?

A torque is a moment which is a force around a point at a certain distance. It is the force perpendicular to the radius times the length of the radius. In SI units it is measured in Nm (Newton meters) and in imperial it is measured in ft.lb(f) (that's pound force rather than pounds mass). It is an instantaneous measure. Generally speaking an internal combustion engine will have to be turning to generate rotary force, though this is not strictly true. One could measure the torque of an ICE that wasn't turning but it varies quite markedly over time. At piston at top dead center contributes no torque - maximum torque is delivered in the first quarter turn after ignition (first half of first stroke). The main contributors to torque are the force that the piston can apply which is dependent on pressure in the cylinder, the cross section of the cylinder and the eccentricity of the crankshaft. A large piston face will always give more torque than a narrow one. However, a small displacement engine will always have to run at higher RPM to deliver the same power as a large displacement engine but high rpm/low torque is converted to low rpm/high torque by the gear train.
An electric motor can apply torque without rotating because of how it works. They can generally generate high torques at low RPM but tend to be RPM limited, partly because of mechanical issues but also because of electrical properties.

 

[metalman]

This solves the torque problem of the engine since a electric motor will supply full torque at 0 RPM.

I don't see this in the article?

because its not, It would be my solution to utilize that type of engine in an automobile design, a conventional mechanical drive train is not practical for that engine.

Do you mean it can apply full torque immediately from standstill?

yes, its the advantage of the electric powertrain design, hence its use by diesel-locomotives

If so that may be a problem for an automobile engine. Something has to vary the speed about the only option would be a CVT transmission.

the engine is decoupled from the drivetrain, the engine runs the electric generator, the wheel motors are supplied voltage & current from the generator & the battery bank. The battery bank is sized to handle electric motor startup surge requirements (e.g. start capacitors).

See Fluffy's torque explanation. he explained it very well.