Obama's Unhelpful advice

Dammy said:
Only thing I've heard from Progressives is how evil corporations are and how wonderful big government is.
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Never hear progressives use the term "Fascism"? Never heard them complain about no-bid cost plus contracts?
What we are now seeing in the US is how Big Business and Big Government are having uncivil union that would make a pr0n star blush.
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Seeing it now with finance the way we saw it with oil and energy companies before.

However, progressives do have a different view of government, i.e. that the government should always be bigger than business so that it can curtail bad practices. Part of what killed the economy is repeal of sensible regulations and restrictions. The other part is failure to enforce the regulations that were left. As a society we need regulations and if we are to have fair regulations we need that the people are properly represented in the regulation process.

Businesses do not like the regulating function of government and would not mind if it went away. They do need the courts to settle contract disputes and they do need the police to protect them from angry mobs and they do need the army to capture new areas of the planet for markets and resources, but they don't like social benefits like healthcare (because private companies can provide healthcare with higher markups when there is no public option) and social security which is a big pile of money that they think is theirs.

Big business also likes the tax collection so they can run the government as a big slush fund.

However, if "The People" ran the government then they would run it with different interests such as building a strong nation of people with personal liberties and a shot at a good education based on merit not on family and other founding ideals.

The people, in general, are too ignorant and easily swayed to understand this, however, and instead let them selves be convinced by astroturf campaigns that the kind of policies they want are the ones that Big Business wants - shrink social services and regulations and keep the military (and sell off all the people's assets to crony friends so they can be rented back to the people).
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Part of what killed the economy is repeal of sensible regulations and restrictions. The other part is failure to enforce the regulations that were left.
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And despite this we still have people (like a banking spokesman in yesterday's Guardian) claiming absurdities like, "Now is not the time for banking regulations. That would destroy the recovery."

And huge numbers of people swallow this pish the same way they swallowed Saddam-WMD-9/11-Alqaeda.
 
faethor said:
@Metalman,

Though this seems to indicate 6 guitars were taken and some wood. So, I think it's still a question on which type of Rosewood and from where in the world Mrs O's guitar is derived.
http://nashvillepost.com/blogs/postbusiness/2010/8/12/what_the_feds_found_at_gibson
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Thats from the Nov 2009 raid

USA vs Ebony woods in various forms pdf
Affidavid US F&WL Special Agent Kevin L Seiler pdf
Search warrant Gibson Guitar Nov 2009 pdf

Not the current raid, which involves Indian Rosewood
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
So, you saying that they don't learn?
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Gibson now purchases "Indian Rosewood" from the same supplier as Martin Guitar, and receives the same paperwork from the supplier.

Martin Guitar wasn't raided? Why?? hmmmm
 
metalman said:
Gibson now purchases "Indian Rosewood" from the same supplier as Martin Guitar, and receives the same paperwork from the supplier.

Martin Guitar wasn't raided? Why?? hmmmm
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Could be one of many reasons. I know which one you are thinking but that isn't the only option.
One reason could be "priors". Another could be (you fave, I'll guess) a political hit. I don't think that is likely because guitar manufacturers are small time when it comes to influence or funding. Or it could have been called for as a political hit as part of a Republican campaign to paint Obama as vindictive and petty and to scare voters away from the Dems.

This would explain why there is such a big fuss over a little pissanty company (in the big scheme of things) over a "tree hugging" agenda.

Or it could just be that there's better evidence to move against Gibson than Martin or it could be that Martin is next.

Further, as a political hit it is just too crass. If the Obama administration was sending messages I think they would be more subtle and veiled than the in your face Cheney/Rove kind of move that this looks like if it were so.
 
metalman said:
Thats from the Nov 2009 raid

USA vs Ebony woods in various forms pdf
Affidavid US F&WL Special Agent Kevin L Seiler pdf
Search warrant Gibson Guitar Nov 2009 pdf

Not the current raid, which involves Indian Rosewood
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Ahh so when Michelle Obama gave the First Lady of France the Guitar (2009) the Indian Rosewood frettboard wasn't being questioned. If it's current, 2011, then Michelle's activities were prior to the enforcement of the law.

So was Gibson charged with all Indian Rosewood from 2009 - current? Or just current?
 
The 2008 Farm Bill (the Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008), effective May 22, 2008, amended the Lacey Act to include wood and other plant products, when the Democratic Congress over rode President Bush's veto of the bill.

the 2009 Gibson raid was over Madagascar ebony (genus Diospyros) & rosewood

the current raid is over Indian Rosewood

Madagascar’s government issued two contradictory decrees in 2009: the first, the harvesting of all precious woods was made illegal, but a second allowed the export of hundreds of shipping containers packed with already harvested wood.
 
Okay. You charged Mrs. Obama with illegal handling of Indian Rosewood. This would have been in 2009. My question to you is since this is a 2011 charge how far back does the charge extend? Does it extend into 2009 purchases by Gibson? And will the end judgement extend or impact purchasers of guitars in 2009?

Here's my thought - if 0 end purchasers from 2009 are impacted by judgement certainly Mrs. O is being handled the same as everyone else.
 
faethor said:
Okay. You charged Mrs. Obama with illegal handling of Indian Rosewood. This would have been in 2009. My question to you is since this is a 2011 charge how far back does the charge extend? Does it extend into 2009 purchases by Gibson? And will the end judgement extend or impact purchasers of guitars in 2009?
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effective May 22, 2008
 
faethor said:
Article on Gibson and they support the Lacey Act. They understand that overuse of wood has pushed some woods to near extinction.

http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/...-raided-by-the-justice-department?sc=fb&cc=fp
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Approximately 95% of Madagascar’s exported rosewood and ebony is shipped to China to build luxury Ming Dynasty-style furniture including solid wood rosewood bed frames that sell for 1 million dollars each. Some of the largest furniture chains in Shanghai and Beijing have entire floors selling only rosewood & ebony furniture. Only 5% of the exported rosewood and ebony is purchased by musical instrument companies in United States and Europe. Musical instrument manufacture only uses small wood chips for inlays, too small to be of use to bed frame manufactures of solid wood furniture.
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In an interview on KMJ’s “The Chris Daniel Show,” Gibson CEO Henry Juszkiewicz confirmed that the US F&WL said that if Gibson guitars used Madagascar labor to finish the ebony wood, then it would be legal to import to the US.
CHRIS DANIEL: Mr. Juszkiewicz, did an agent of the US government suggest to you that your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of American labor?
HENRY JUSZKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a [inaudible].
CHRIS DANIEL: Excuse me?
HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: They actually wrote that in a pleading.
CHRIS DANIEL: That your problems would go away if you used Madagascar labor instead of our labor?
HENRY JUSKIEWICZ: Yes
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The problem with the DOJ interpreting foreign laws is that Madagascar’s government issued two contradictory decrees in 2009: the first, the harvesting of all precious woods (ebony & rosewood) was made illegal unless finished with local labor, but a second law allowed transactions for export to be completed, where the shipping containers were already packed with harvested wood and awaiting shipment.
 
metalman said:
Approximately 95% of Madagascar’s exported rosewood and ebony is shipped to China to build luxury Ming Dynasty-style furniture including solid wood rosewood bed frames that sell for 1 million dollars each. Some of the largest furniture chains in Shanghai and Beijing have entire floors selling only rosewood & ebony furniture. Only 5% of the exported rosewood and ebony is purchased by musical instrument companies in United States and Europe. Musical instrument manufacture only uses small wood chips for inlays, too small to be of use to bed frame manufactures of solid wood furniture.
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Your point here is if China is abusing then the US should too. I personally don't view the USA to be that pathetic. If we want to be world leaders then we need to act like it. Respecting nation's law and not taking part in extinction is an import characteristic in leading. It'll be sad to see a plant driven to extinction. And we shouldn't play a part, in any amount.
 
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