Ok, so... I might be an idiot... :)

[JoBBo]

That's not bad luck, that is bad design. Simple parts that are known to have a more limited life should be more easily accessible than that.

I know a fair amount of people who have owned VW cards. None of them ever had to replace an alternator...

As for replacing timing belts/chains... You know what? I've never replaced a timing chain. Ever.

Unlike timing belts, timing chains are often designed to last an automobile´s entire life.

And I've driven several cars more than 200,000 miles. Most of the time, the cost of changing the timing chain isn't all that much different from just picking up a rebuilt engine, and, admittedly, it's usually more than is worth sinking into the car when dealing with the types of cars I often drive. So why not roll the dice on it?

Because if you are driving down a long hill (or towards a steep curve or, worst-case scenario, towards a cliff) and suddenly your power steering and power brakes stop working, that can be a very dangerous situation to be in. Maybe when you are driving 10 mph in snow-covered Michigan, that is not much of a concern. Still, I think it is worth noting that plenty of independent organizations strongly suggest to pay close attention to the manufacturer-recommended timing belt replacement intervalls.

If your car uses a timing chain (not a belt), the issue may be less urgent. But it is still smart to at least check if your timing chain is supposed to last decades or whether you are supposed to replace it at some point.

 

[ilwrath]

Well, I think you have a few good points, there, and a definite strawman argument.

I know a fair amount of people who have owned VW cards. None of them ever had to replace an alternator...

Well, probably true. Though, I've replaced a number of alternators over the years, they really are usually good for 100,000 miles or more, nowadays. I guess maybe that excuses some terrible packaging choices. I don't know what access things would be worse with a better alternator placement...

Unlike timing belts, timing chains are often designed to last an automobile´s entire life.

This is true, too. And thinking about it, it brings up an interesting point. Whenever I have the choice between high-feature and delicate vs. simple and durable, I take simple and durable in my daily driver vehicles. You hit on an important point in that VW in the US is a boutique brand, and they cater to the higher-feature side of that equation. And that will naturally cost more to maintain.

Because if you are driving down a long hill (or towards a steep curve or, worst-case scenario, towards a cliff) and suddenly your power steering and power brakes stop working, that can be a very dangerous situation to be in. Maybe when you are driving 10 mph in snow-covered Michigan, that is not much of a concern. Still, I think it is worth noting that plenty of independent organizations strongly suggest to pay close attention to the manufacturer-recommended timing belt replacement intervalls.

This is a complete strawman, though. Any failure that interrupts the engine running will cause the mildly dangerous situation you give. Take for instance, a fuel pump, an ECM, an ignition module, a fuel pump relay, or any number of other things. I just stated those, because in the 500,000 or so miles I've driven in the past 15 years without having a timing belt/chain fail, I've had all of the items I listed fail on me in the fashion you mention, and yet not a single one of those is on any scheduled maintenance chart I've ever seen.

 

[Wayne]

For the record, I'm fairly certain that a good portion of my troubles with the Passat can be traced back to getting run off the road a couple of years ago where I bent a couple of alloy rims and blew tires. After that, strange things started happening, like alignment and other issues. It's possible that said accident "jarred" or otherwise tapped the alternator and other parts just enough to encourage their eventual failure.

While I hate the "german engineering" aspect (aka "have to go to VW for everything") and would not (at this point) volunteer to own another one, I'm fairly certain they're decent, stable, and reliable little cars. Lee for example has a 2004 Passat TDI that he loves. The difference being that he can accept the heightened maintenance costs as part of the ownership of the vehicle.

Indeed, if these not-so-little things had been spread out over the course of a year instead of every single month on end, I'd probably be prone to overlook it, but considering other circumstances, when I'm continually having to drain savings and I can't seem to get ahead of that curve (or see an end in sight) something's simply got to change.

Well, let's be honest. There's also the fact that I let the earworm get into my brain that I needed and wanted a truck, so that also played a 45% factor in my decision, but the maintenance thing and the "$1000 alternator" was the deciding factor when all was said and done..

Wayne

 

[JoBBo]

I guess maybe that excuses some terrible packaging choices. I don't know what access things would be worse with a better alternator placement...

Me neither. But I would assume they must have considered which parts are the most likely to fail and they should have more accurate information about this than both of us. VW do not receive any extra revenue if a dealer charges for more work hours because a part is difficult to get to so I do not think there is any obvious profit motivation for VW´s engineers to make things unnecessarily complicated.

This is true, too. And thinking about it, it brings up an interesting point. Whenever I have the choice between high-feature and delicate vs. simple and durable, I take simple and durable in my daily driver vehicles.

I see your point but I would argue that, compared to simple timing belts, "timing chains" would probably need to be put in a separate "high-feature and durable" category. (Some GM owners with stretched timing chains might say it qualifies for "high-feature and delicate" even.)

This is a complete strawman, though. Any failure that interrupts the engine running will cause the mildly dangerous situation you give. Take for instance, a fuel pump, an ECM, an ignition module, a fuel pump relay, or any number of other things. I just stated those, because in the 500,000 or so miles I've driven in the past 15 years without having a timing belt/chain fail, I've had all of the items I listed fail on me in the fashion you mention, and yet not a single one of those is on any scheduled maintenance chart I've ever seen.

Personally, I have never had an engine fail on me and I am not aware of anybody among my familiy and friends who have either (dead batteries in parked cars happened a number of times). I also happen to live in a country where you can legally drive 150 mph on public highways so perhaps this explains why sudden engine failure is not usually taken lightly here.

For the record, I'm fairly certain that a good portion of my troubles with the Passat can be traced back to getting run off the road a couple of years ago where I bent a couple of alloy rims and blew tires. After that, strange things started happening, like alignment and other issues. It's possible that said accident "jarred" or otherwise tapped the alternator and other parts just enough to encourage their eventual failure.

While I hate the "german engineering" aspect (aka "have to go to VW for everything") and would not (at this point) volunteer to own another one, I'm fairly certain they're decent, stable, and reliable little cars. Lee for example has a 2004 Passat TDI that he loves. The difference being that he can accept the heightened maintenance costs as part of the ownership of the vehicle.

Just to expand on my argument of VW being a niche brand in the US, because so many more people drive VW cars in many other countries, you usually have access to a much broader variety of off-brand parts there as well. So, it is not that you generally have to go for VW for everything as long as you live outside of the US.

That being said, we have probably all read by now that car manufacturers generate profits by selling parts (and offering financing), not actual vehicles. This is true for Chrysler, Ford, General Motors as well as international competitors such as VW. Clearly, plenty of people are buying official parts and accessories for their GM cars or else the company would note have reported record profits last quarter.

 

[ilwrath]

Personally, I have never had an engine fail on me and I am not aware of anybody among my familiy and friends who have either (dead batteries in parked cars happened a number of times). I also happen to live in a country where you can legally drive 150 mph on public highways so perhaps this explains why sudden engine failure is not usually taken lightly here.

Hmm... Two good points, there. Yeah, an engine cutting out at 150 is a lot worse than an engine cutting out at 25. Even if you're on a freeway here, you're doing maybe 75, tops (5mph over highest speed limit), and usually have at least 3 lanes also traveling your direction, in addition to a shoulder you can pull off on.

And that also brings up duty cycle. It's a lot harder on a car to run for an hour at 120 than 2 hours at 60. That'll definitely eat some more parts, for sure. And you need some more precision and higher features to do that, too.

 

[Kesa]

Can i ask some advice? I am looking for a used car and have my heart set on a VW Golf. There are few for sale that i am interested in. The one below is a MK4 with a low odometer. It is very cheap compared to other similar Golfs. Is this a good car to buy or should i steer clear? What i want is a car that will last 200000km's (120000 miles). I don't care about performance i just want reliability. I guess i am asking whether it is ok to buy a car this old? I can afford to spend more but would like to save money if i could and I don't mind having an older model. $6450AUD is $4781USD. 34000km is 21,126 miles. Thanks.

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/_/SSE-AD-4093391

 

[JoBBo]

Can i ask some advice? I am looking for a used car and have my heart set on a VW Golf. There are few for sale that i am interested in. The one below is a MK4 with a low odometer. It is very cheap compared to other similar Golfs. Is this a good car to buy or should i steer clear? What i want is a car that will last 200000km's (120000 miles). I don't care about performance i just want reliability. I guess i am asking whether it is ok to buy a car this old? I can afford to spend more but would like to save money if i could and I don't mind having an older model. $6450AUD is $4781USD. 34000km is 21,126 miles. Thanks.

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/_/SSE-AD-4093391

It is important to know that the mileage counter can be very easily manipulated. But as the seller seems to have service records for the car, you should be able to trust this information.

With old cars, rust is an extremely common issue. The seller writes that it was kept in a garage for 9 years, which sounds promising.

Also, another common occurence with old cars are failing air conditioning units, which can be very expensive to repair. Once again, because the seller has full service records, chances are good that the AC was reasonably well maintained.

As for the mileage target, any car can be made to last 200.000 km or more as long as you have the money to pay for the repairs More seriously, it sounds perfectly realistic that you should be able to drive this type of car for this many kilometres. But, since you mention concerns about costs, you need to remember that you will have to pay for repairs and you should budget for them. Going for a lower initial price so you have a bit of financial breathing room to cover eventual repairs is a smarter strategy than maxing out your budget to buy the newest car you can afford hoping that you will not need to pay for repairs for a long time...

In any case, if you have a chance to go for a test drive, make sure to test the air conditioning unit (many forget to do that during winter). The AC units in VW cars of this generation may produce a distinct smell. That is normal. As long as the car gets substantially cooler than the environment temperature, everything should be fine.

Also, when you drive the car, make sure to lower the windows (one on each side - at least by a fair bit) so you are more likely to hear odd noises that would hint at technical problems (especially when making turns, driving on bumpy roads or braking). Again, not something people usually do during winter time, but it can be helpful.

Plus, if you have the time to do so, you could check if any nearby dealers are selling a similar Golf. Just go there and ask for a quick test drive before you test the one you actually want to buy. This way you have a point of reference and are more likely to notice if something is completely off.

If you are completely overwhelmed by it all, you might also want to consider spending $100 - §200 AUS for a pre-purchase check done by professionals. But, in general, I think this car looks quite promising given your priorities.

 

[Wayne]

Can i ask some advice? I am looking for a used car and have my heart set on a VW Golf. There are few for sale that i am interested in. The one below is a MK4 with a low odometer. It is very cheap compared to other similar Golfs. Is this a good car to buy or should i steer clear? What i want is a car that will last 200000km's (120000 miles). I don't care about performance i just want reliability. I guess i am asking whether it is ok to buy a car this old? I can afford to spend more but would like to save money if i could and I don't mind having an older model. $6450AUD is $4781USD. 34000km is 21,126 miles. Thanks.

http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/_/SSE-AD-4093391

@Kesa - When all is said and done, I honestly can't say anything "bad" about Volkswagen cars or reliability past my own experience. My Passat was bought used from the VW dealer. That being said, I may have simply gotten a lemon, or it's possible -- if not likely -- that my Passat was one of the cars that came out of Hurricane Sandy as a "retitled flood car" since it was a 2012 and originally titled in New Jersey.

What killed me with Volkswagen is that EVERYTHING, down to the windshield wipers, was a "VW-Only" maintenance thing, meaning I had to return to the VW dealership and pay high prices to get anything done. You may have a place around where you live that specializes in German cars, but they may also want to charge VW prices for maintenance. $600+ for a 50,000 mile service, then $1,000+ to change out an alternator, like mine..

I can say that the VW was a nice car, nice options, and hella fun to drive. My new truck is more comfortable long distances, but then again, the truck doesn't get 35mpg on the highway either.

The idea that the owner has maintenance records is a good thing, but have the car inspected by someone who knows VWs before you pull the trigger.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Wayne

 

[Kesa]

Thanks guys. This was a big help. Tell you a secret - i have never driven a car before so this is exciting for me. As for the car i would be happy if i bought this car but if i spent a couple of thousand more i can get a Golf MK6 with double the odometer and double the price. Decisions decisions...

I want this car as a supplementary vehicle to my motorbike. As much as i love my bike it just isn't practical when the weather is not favourable or you need to do stuff like shopping or moving house.

@Wayne. What bikes do you have? Pictures?

**EDIT- The car has been sold. Talk about timing!

 

[ilwrath]

Well, I don't know about Australia, but physical odometer manipulation isn't nearly as common as it used to be in the USA. It is dead easy to get a Carfax or other vehicle report, and it is hard to not have that manipulation show up there. Any time the car gets any service, traffic incident, sale, etc, mileage is recorded and logged to that report by VIN. Insurance companies make sure of it. It catches most stolen and re-vin'd cars, too. Pretty much the only thing you could get away with is physically disconnecting the dashboard, nowadays. And even that is really hard, as the dash is tied to the CAN bus and body control modules that control most everything electronic on the car that isn't safety critical -- including the anti-theft and immobilizer systems. (Of course, back in 2003, it was much less so.)

As for that ad, itself, it's too late to do anything about... But, to me, for that type of situation should you find another one, I'd say, approach with caution. Sure... It *could* be someone actually selling off a low use car that really did get garaged and pampered... It happens all the time. The car was dad's toy, but now he got injured, and the family needs to move it quick. THAT car is likely a great deal. But that type of ad is also a favorite for moving a salvage / reVIN / stolen. One single picture with nothing tying in a date it was taken, or even if it is the same car. Buyer beware. Doubly so in private transactions, and double that when a deal looks too good.

 

[JoBBo]

As for that ad, itself, it's too late to do anything about... But, to me, for that type of situation should you find another one, I'd say, approach with caution. Sure... It *could* be someone actually selling off a low use car that really did get garaged and pampered... It happens all the time. The car was dad's toy, but now he got injured, and the family needs to move it quick. THAT car is likely a great deal. But that type of ad is also a favorite for moving a salvage / reVIN / stolen. One single picture with nothing tying in a date it was taken, or even if it is the same car. Buyer beware. Doubly so in private transactions, and double that when a deal looks too good.

Until a few hours ago, the listing included an entire gallery of pictures. Looks like the car is now marked as "not available" so it was probably sold...

Well, one less decision to make for Kesa, I guess

 

[Wayne]

@Kesa - sorry about the timing, but there are plenty of cars out there.

I'm currently "between bikes" (meaning I have none). When I moved to the D.C. area, I didn't have a garage and wasn't comfy leaving a $20,000 bike parked on the street at night, so I sold it. Then, one thing after another, and I just never got around to buying a replacement.

Wayne