Race Baiting and Barak Obama?

ltstanfo said:
I'm glad that both of us appear to agree on the word "context" Faethor. What we appear to disagree on is how it is used. In this case I do not see Beck saying anything offensive. Obviously opinions vary. Had the comment come from another black I would be inclined to agree with you. Had the comment come from the KKK I would agree with you. Had the comment come from (the late) Jesse Helms, I would agree with you.
Time to give your head a shake, maybe even take a nice long cold shower. You need to come to the realization that racism today is no longer obvious and in your face, but disguised and thinly veiled. No longer does one need a white hood and a burning cross to spew racial scatology. I have spoken with Canadians who have spent significant periods of time in the Southern US who speak of such racism. A waitress I was chatting with recently, who spent a year at a Georgia university told me of the constant use of the term "porch monkey", a term she never heard before and one she had to explain to me. And you always know when your playing against Americans online (say, BF2) because they'll call you a "niger" if you do something they don't like. When I see terms like "Magic Negro" used to refer to Obama, despite the terms origins and intent, I can't help but think the US really hasn't come that far at all. And when I see whites such as yourself defending these statements on such flimsy of arguments, I can't help but think that there's some well hidden racism there as well.
 
Re: I can't believe I almost forgot about this example

ltstanfo said:
Rush's musical parody guy (a DJ if I recall correctly) just took the ball and ran with it.

So, you're saying that if everybody else jumped off a bridge, Rush would too.

If you bothered to check the article you cited (written by a black/Irish/Polish/Jewish gay man so he knows a thing about minorities) you would see that the reference to the Magica Negro was a literary or (since David primarily writes about film) cinematic archetype that is explicitly racist.

It seems that Rush and his DJ and others like them are too lazy to follow the link David provides to the wikipedia "Magical Negro" entry.

Or they did it on purpose.
 
Obama sign stolen, replaced with Confederate flag

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx. ... -0192.html

Going back to the earlier discussion, I don't recall saying that the term originated with Rush Limbaugh. But at any rate that point is meaningless. The point is not who made up the term, the point is the meaning of the term and its context within that particular song. And I am trying to understand how on the one hand you can say that the song plays to racial stereotypes and then turn around and say it isn't racist. As I pointed our before, it really isn't up to us, a bunch of middle-class white Southern guys, to determine what is racist and what is not racist. If you put a lot of this stuff in front of a room full of African Americans, what do you think they are going to say? You think that they will view racism the same way that Rush or Glenn does? You think they will view it the same way that you or I or any other white middle-class college-educated Southern male would? You can attack the notion of "political correctness" all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of things that someone can say or do that are racist without having to go all out and burn a cross on a lawn or use words like "nigger".
 
Glaucus said:
Time to give your head a shake, maybe even take a nice long cold shower. You need to come to the realization that racism today is no longer obvious and in your face, but disguised and thinly veiled. No longer does one need a white hood and a burning cross to spew racial scatology. I have spoken with Canadians who have spent significant periods of time in the Southern US who speak of such racism. A waitress I was chatting with recently, who spent a year at a Georgia university told me of the constant use of the term "porch monkey", a term she never heard before and one she had to explain to me. And you always know when your playing against Americans online (say, BF2) because they'll call you a "niger" if you do something they don't like. When I see terms like "Magic Negro" used to refer to Obama, despite the terms origins and intent, I can't help but think the US really hasn't come that far at all. And when I see whites such as yourself defending these statements on such flimsy of arguments, I can't help but think that there's some well hidden racism there as well.

Mike,

Thanks for your thoughts. While I have to consider the possibility that maybe I could be oblivious to (as you say) veiled / disguised racial slurs, etc.. I also have to consider that not everything that is viewed as racial has to be.

I grew up (and went to school... including college) in the deep south and have heard much of what you allude to (including the porch monkey expression) and while some are clearly racial (reference the afore mentioned) I have not regarded other expressions in the same catagory. As faethor alluded to previously, I regard context as the determining factor. However, as an experiment, I am willing to over analyze what everyone says for the next week and see what I think at that time. I'll get back to you then with my impressions.

Regards,
Ltstanfo
 
Re: Obama sign stolen, replaced with Confederate flag

eleventhma said:
http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-10-20-0192.html

Going back to the earlier discussion, I don't recall saying that the term originated with Rush Limbaugh. But at any rate that point is meaningless. The point is not who made up the term, the point is the meaning of the term and its context within that particular song. And I am trying to understand how on the one hand you can say that the song plays to racial stereotypes and then turn around and say it isn't racist. As I pointed our before, it really isn't up to us, a bunch of middle-class white Southern guys, to determine what is racist and what is not racist. If you put a lot of this stuff in front of a room full of African Americans, what do you think they are going to say? You think that they will view racism the same way that Rush or Glenn does? You think they will view it the same way that you or I or any other white middle-class college-educated Southern male would? You can attack the notion of "political correctness" all you want, but the fact of the matter is that there are a lot of things that someone can say or do that are racist without having to go all out and burn a cross on a lawn or use words like "nigger".

Geoff,

Let me get this straight... the song Rush's guy created is racial but Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock, etc.. never make racial comments (jokes) in their performances even though they clearly play to stereotypes?

I believe that we all have become (to an extent) victims of double standards. Before I go further, let me reiterate, I am fully aware that racisim still exists (see my previous posts). What I find curious is your statement about who says what... let's use the classic "N" word. If a white person says it, it is clearly racial (no disagreement from me). But why is it tolerated when blacks say it to each other? Why is it so popular in rap music and on screen? Does this somehow make it less demeaning?

What about my previous statement about "being white"? Others here regard Beck's comment as being racial but what would happen if another black said it? We all know what "Uncle Tom" means so am I to understand that "being white" has completely (and in its entirety) replaced that old expression?

And while we're at it, would you please send me a copy of the "secret message" manual so I know when I stray from acceptable conversation. Apparently I have to be monitored from now on...

Regards,
Ltstanfo
 
Re: Obama sign stolen, replaced with Confederate flag

In an effort to be more observant of what I am told I am missing (about racism) I am trying to be more observant of what is said / reported around me.

Is this article, at least in part, racial? I offer the following text:

"Powell's endorsement has been much anticipated because he is a Republican with impressive foreign policy credentials. At the same time, he is a black man and Obama would be the nation's first black president."

Now, I don't know about you but why does / should it matter that Powell is black? I could care less if he were green or purple. I respect the man for what he has accomplished. The fact that he is black is meaningless to me.

Opinions please...

Regards,
Ltstanfo
 
Some perspective on the Powell endorsement

Already there are a lot of people out there, including Rush Limbaugh, (who seems to be leading the charge, so to speak) that General Powell made this endorsement on the sole basis that both he and Senator Obama are black. Although Powell made a pretty detailed argument of how he thinks the Republican party has gone astray, and how McCain is running an awful campaign, Rush and Pat Buchanan and George Will and a heap of other conservatives are all pointing to the race issue as the reason, essentially ignoring virtually everything that Powell actually said. To them, it HAS to be based on race. So, there couldn't possibly be any other logical explanation, huh guys? Really? Has Powell endorsed every other black Presidential candidate that ran in the last 20 years? Did he endorse Alan Keyes in 2000? Did he endorse Al Sharpton in 2004? There has been a black man running for President (at least in the primaries) every election for at least the last 6 or 7 elections. How many did he endorse before? None. Zero.

Now, Powell DID endorse a white conservative guy with little experience not too long ago. That guy was named George W. Bush. Powell served in his cabinet for 4 years, despite being constantly undermined by both Vice President Cheney and Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld. But he stayed on. He even threw away his credibility on that whole Iraqi WMD debacle in front of the United Nations, largely because he felt like he owed a certain amount of loyalty to the President, so he should just do his job and being a good soldier. And now that he finally feels free to speak his mind, and offer an impassioned argument on how the Republican party has let him down, how does most of the Republican party respond? Like this.

Now, to go on to your other observations. The article you quoted is not really racist (you said racial? not sure what you meant) because all it does is point out that yes, Obama is black, and yes, Powell is black, but the very next sentence after your quote puts it in context, saying that Powell is aware of those circumstances but that did not affect his decision. That is my interpretation for whatever it's worth.

Also, when it comes to racial epithets and such, it is generally considered acceptable (or at least more acceptable than otherwise) if an epithet is used by a minority to describe itself, rather than the majority or another ethnic group or whatever. For example, among my gay friends calling each other "dyke" or "faggot" is sort of a playful joke, because no one really means it that way. It is not intended to be an insult. It is not intended to wound because its use by someone within the group sort of negates the connotation of the word being used to differentiate someone as an "other". Some sociologists call it an effort to "reclaim" the word, to take away some of its power. I would imagine that the use of the word "nigger" by many black musicians, comedians, and others in the community is similar in some respects. That being said, it is still a highly inflammatory word, even among many African Americans. It will never really be considered an acceptable word. And its use by any white person is considered highly inflammatory, because its historical context was always in that particular role - as a derogatory term that a white man used for a black man.

A black person calling another black person "too white" or "acting white" or similar terms is also generally highly offensive, mostly because it implies a certain abandonment of black culture and behavior on the part of the person so called. It means that the black person has adopted the mannerisms, speech patterns, and general behaviors of white culture. At least that has certainly been its historical use, and from what I have gathered it is still considered that way. And actually, "Uncle Tom" has a related but very different connotation. That term is used to describe someone who debases himself in order to curry favor with whites. So those two terms are not exclusive, but neither are they exactly the same.

There is no secret message manual, buddy. The only secret messages are the ones that are around us all the time but we normally tune out. You just have to learn to start paying attention to them.
 
ltstanfo said:
I'm glad that both of us appear to agree on the word "context" Faethor. What we appear to disagree on is how it is used. In this case I do not see Beck saying anything offensive. Obviously opinions vary. Had the comment come from another black I would be inclined to agree with you. Had the comment come from the KKK I would agree with you. Had the comment come from (the late) Jesse Helms, I would agree with you.
Again it's about context and user. I don't have the full text of Glenn Beck here but if he meant to imply Obama's successful because he acts white then that's a racist item.

Blacks calling other blacks 'white' is indeed a racial put down. One might get away with it as fun between friends but random black man 1 calls random black man 2 white it is not going to be acceptable. Friends have a different level of trust and understanding then random people. I've called my wife 'beyotch'. Now to some this is completely unacceptable. She laughed because she knew I didn't mean it and I delivered it in a mocking tone. I think we all give our friends more flexibility then we would for random strangers.

Clarence Thomas as a comparison. Both he an Obama are successful, established, political, outspoken and visible black men. Both could be construed as "being white" and I would not necessarily view that text as being racial in nature (again depending on context and who said it). Perhaps I am being somewhat naive (sp?) but I think that people often over react to what "the pundits" (let alone the average person) say.
Indeed there may be some naivete in there. I think it's highly questionable to classify someone outside of their race. First it assumes racial stereotypes. It then makes the assertion that person doesn't fit in with their race or heritage. Next it assumes one can only be the other race, in this case white, to have those particular characteristics.

As for Rush and playing 'Barack the magic Negro' song. The person delivering the 'humor' owns the actions. It doesn't matter who said it first. When someone, like Rush, who is already highly offensive and inflammatory uses material the population is going to be more sensitive. Rush owns this. Rush has choosen to make himself a public figure. As a public figure he has said things prior to this which many see as racist. There is more going on here then 1 song.


Eddie Murphy, Chris Rock how about throw in the late great Richard Pryor do use racism as humor in their act. It's not universally accepted. Many people refuse to listen to them. And why can't a white say this? Simply we as a society aren't at that point yet. Whites for, well the history of this country, have owned and do own the power. Until that's more equiable we are going to be seen as oppressors. Is that right? No. But, that is why a white can't say the same things.
 
Re: Some perspective on the Powell endorsement

eleventhma said:
Also, when it comes to racial epithets and such, it is generally considered acceptable (or at least more acceptable than otherwise) if an epithet is used by a minority to describe itself, rather than the majority or another ethnic group or whatever. For example, among my gay friends calling each other "dyke" or "faggot" is sort of a playful joke, because no one really means it that way. It is not intended to be an insult. It is not intended to wound because its use by someone within the group sort of negates the connotation of the word being used to differentiate someone as an "other". Some sociologists call it an effort to "reclaim" the word, to take away some of its power. I would imagine that the use of the word "nigger" by many black musicians, comedians, and others in the community is similar in some respects. That being said, it is still a highly inflammatory word, even among many African Americans. It will never really be considered an acceptable word. And its use by any white person is considered highly inflammatory, because its historical context was always in that particular role - as a derogatory term that a white man used for a black man.

Thanks for that Geoff. Here is where I have no problem admitting that I do not agree (and likely never will). If a word is supposed to be "off limits", then that should be the rule... plain and simple. I have no problem banning words such as the "n" word from my vocabulary but I take offense to anyone using them because somehow when they use it it's "ok". Your example about your friends, while perhaps understandable (to them) is still an issue for me. If we are expected to live by all these rules / exceptions then someone better write a secret user manual or this will never get sorted out and everyone will wonder why we haven't made it further. :wink:

Regards,
Ltstanfo
 
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