Ron Paul responds to TSA molesting and voyeurism

redrumloa

redrumloa

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Boohoo. I much prefer this approach to fighting terrorism then high altitude bombing civilians in other nations. But that's ok because their inconvenience (and death) is convenient for you.
 
Glaucus said:
Boohoo. I much prefer this approach to fighting terrorism then high altitude bombing civilians in other nations. But that's ok because their inconvenience (and death) is convenient for you.
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Billions spent, millions molested and humiliated, how many people arrested directly because of the new measures?

ZERO
 
redrumloa said:
Billions spent, millions molested and humiliated, how many people arrested directly because of the new measures?
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Well, ever since I installed my monitored alarm, high security medeco locks, bars on the basement windows and PVC doors and frames that absorb impact so well a police battering ram would have a hard time breaking through, no one has ever broken into my home. Wow, what a huge waste of time and money that was! Meanwhile my neighbor right next door who has none of those features was broken into and had her house trashed. But good thing she didn't waste her money on security.
 
Glaucus said:
Boohoo. I much prefer this approach to fighting terrorism then high altitude bombing civilians in other nations.
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Both these things you mention are not forms of fighting terrorism but methods OF terrorism. The point in both is to create fear enough to get people to submit to an authority and give up their freedoms. Classical soft target attacks have been around since forever - Edward III of England started his takeover of the French crown with raids on the citizenry to shake the authority of the French king's protection. The point was to undermine the existing authority and chase people to his own authority.

The point of modern terrorism seems to be similar - to drive people to the authority state rather than the free and politically engaged state (which has been traditionally much harder to rule up until the powerful propaganda states that were able to arise with modern centralized communications and which the decentralized internet has disrupted).

The scanners are theatre and profit centers. They are not about making the people safer but about making the rulers safer. The brave are harder to rule but the soft fearful masses are much more farmable.
 
Glaucus said:
But good thing she didn't waste her money on security.
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It would have been cheaper for her if you hadn't spent the money. Then they'd have trashed your place instead. :) Same damage, less money spent.

Ultimately spending money just shifts the risk onto those who spent less, but at what point is the money spent reaping diminishing returns? My wife insisted we get a monitored security system and so far in the years we've had it, it has been much more expensive than insurance and would not be effective in preventing loss since now that everyone has the things they give so many false alarms, the police basically ignore them. Response times are utterly inadequate to actually catch anyone.

As for the airplane terrorists, making sure that people travel with their luggage has been the biggest thing. It's hard to find terrorists that are willing to die as part of their mission and when there are some that committed there is usually good actionable intelligence that can be used to prevent the attacks such as there was pre 9/11 when german intelligence warned the US and the FBI had already penetrated the hijack ring but were denied the right to decrypt a confiscated laptop - and when the underbomber was reported by his father and yet allowed onto a plane. Suicidal terrorists are an extreme rarity.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Both these things you mention are not forms of fighting terrorism but methods OF terrorism. The point in both is to create fear enough to get people to submit to an authority and give up their freedoms.
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Then they're doing it all wrong as the people aren't all that scared yet. Best way to keep them scared is to allow the attacks to continue. But I honestly disagree with your assessment. We see people die of car crashes all the time, all that motivates us to do is to pay extra on cars with anti-lock brakes, air bags and winter tires - but we don't stop driving. As a result to the many new advancements in car safety, the death rate from car accidents continues to decrease while the number of people driving goes up. I see these security measures along the same lines. Danger can be a great motivator for irrational thought but it's also mitigated greatly when people feel they can take steps to manage it.

Classical soft target attacks have been around since forever - Edward III of England started his takeover of the French crown with raids on the citizenry to shake the authority of the French king's protection. The point was to undermine the existing authority and chase people to his own authority.
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Sure, but if it were so easy and so powerful, things like democracy, constitutions and human rights should have never come into existence anywhere.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
It would have been cheaper for her if you hadn't spent the money. Then they'd have trashed your place instead. :) Same damage, less money spent.
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Well, of course I understood this principle before I installed the alarm. The idea isn't to be impossible to break into, the idea is to be harder to break into then your neighbor. :wink:

Ultimately spending money just shifts the risk onto those who spent less, but at what point is the money spent reaping diminishing returns? My wife insisted we get a monitored security system and so far in the years we've had it, it has been much more expensive than insurance and would not be effective in preventing loss since now that everyone has the things they give so many false alarms, the police basically ignore them. Response times are utterly inadequate to actually catch anyone.
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Of course I realize this as well. I'm not expecting police to rush to my house and nab the bad guys. I do expect to get a call from the monitoring company and since I work less then 10 minutes away, I'll make it home extra speedy. And I keep a nice big breaker bar in my trunk for any "emergencies". I fully understand that my place may be broken into and maybe have a laptop or something stolen. I'd be shocked if they'd have the time to completely clean me out though.

As for the airplane terrorists, making sure that people travel with their luggage has been the biggest thing. It's hard to find terrorists that are willing to die as part of their mission and when there are some that committed there is usually good actionable intelligence that can be used to prevent the attacks such as there was pre 9/11 when german intelligence warned the US and the FBI had already penetrated the hijack ring but were denied the right to decrypt a confiscated laptop - and when the underbomber was reported by his father and yet allowed onto a plane. Suicidal terrorists are an extreme rarity.
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um... I think we see enough suicide bombings to conclude that finding people willing to die for a cause isn't a problem, at least amongst islamists. Just look at the middle east where suicide bombings happen all the time in various nations. As for actionable intelligence, I don't think there's as much intelligence out there that's actionable as you seem to think. If you receive one tip about just one person, you may consider that actionable mostly because you've got nothing else to do. But when you receive thousands of tips on thousands of people all the time, well, how do you act on all of that? The problem we face is that we have many factors to consider. It's not just who, or how, but when as well. A suspected terrorist could safely board flights for years before going on a live mission, how do you know when that will be? We can't lock them all up in Guantanamo. We can't follow them all 24/7. And I wouldn't be surprised if the terrorists are exploiting this by providing "tips" on people that aren't even involved with them, just to mess with Western security. Just because the FBI knew of a terrorist doesn't mean they knew the terrorist and his plans.
 
Glaucus said:
Sure, but if it were so easy and so powerful, things like democracy, constitutions and human rights should have never come into existence anywhere.
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If you hadn't noticed, democracy and constitutions are not the norm. They happen quite infrequently and tend not to last. The US started out with a pretty clean slate (after slaughtering the natives and kicking out the empire) and that is not likely to happen again. It started, as a lot of democracies do, with a fair bit of violence. Generally people have to fight for their rights and freedoms. They tend not to be granted. The USA has had a pretty good run but even there it's form of government didn't even make it through to the 1900s. Whatever else the US may be it certainly no longer is the land of the free or the home of the brave.
 
Glaucus said:
redrumloa said:
Billions spent, millions molested and humiliated, how many people arrested directly because of the new measures?
Click to expand...
Well, ever since I installed my monitored alarm, high security medeco locks, bars on the basement windows and PVC doors and frames that absorb impact so well a police battering ram would have a hard time breaking through, no one has ever broken into my home. Wow, what a huge waste of time and money that was! Meanwhile my neighbor right next door who has none of those features was broken into and had her house trashed. But good thing she didn't waste her money on security.
Click to expand...
your "security measures" only affect your home. no one is treated like a criminal walking past your house.

and it works because you make it more difficult to get into your house. criminals always find the easy way

this is a concept the airlines seems to have missed. all you have to do is make bringing contraband more annoying to pass unnoticed. and they will try another target. you don't don't have to treat everyone like a criminal. you can even make it NOT obvious that you are looking and still catch criminals red-handed.

this whole procedure where everyone in inconvenienced is only there to make it LOOK as if the airlines are doing something. I am not convinced or impressed.
and i am not taking any planes until and unless they get their act together and stop this shit
 
cecilia said:
this whole procedure where everyone in inconvenienced is only there to make it LOOK as if the airlines are doing something. I am not convinced or impressed.
and i am not taking any planes until and unless they get their act together and stop this shit
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I'm glad to see you came around on this issue.
 
redrumloa said:
cecilia said:
this whole procedure where everyone in inconvenienced is only there to make it LOOK as if the airlines are doing something. I am not convinced or impressed.
and i am not taking any planes until and unless they get their act together and stop this shit
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I'm glad to see you came around on this issue.
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what the hell are you talking about??? I've NEVER liked this whole bullshit at airports. EVER. if there were machines that really were effective (not just claimed but really worked) to discover actual objects that could be used to harm others in the air or on the ground, I might put up with walking through them. as long as I wasn't touched by some creepy person.

the problem is that these airports think they can throw some machine in the mix and then Everything Will BE Alright...all the while nothing has changed.

I remember what it was like to just arrive at an airport, get on the plane and get to where I was going. the end.

now i am too paranoid to wear any metal, watch, jewelry, etc because it will set off an alarm. and I have to worry about some creep putting his hands on me.

and I have to wear slip on shoes which is fine but with my bum leg having to take shoes off and on is a pain, plus, i have to WATCH my shit while some creep wands me......come the {bleep} on! how is this fun??? going by air is so {bleep} stressful, I don't need this shit.

yes, there ARE ways of dealing with criminals without inconveniencing everyone else in the universe. i am not inconvenienced by locking my doors, locking the car, watching my belongings as I walk the streets/subways. Security is something natural in the real world, but this crap in airports is a mess. and it's because they are incompetent boobs.

you CAN make security almost invisible. you CAN make going to travel in a plane fairly painless. they choose not to.

my response is to not travel by plane.
 
IMO the left and right are united on the issue of Airport Security is too invasive. Nice to see some agreement in the US of A.
 
faethor said:
IMO the left and right are united on the issue of Airport Security is too invasive. Nice to see some agreement in the US of A.
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The funny thing is, I am seeing certain news claiming 81% of the American public agree with the screening methods yet I have not met anyone out in the wild who does.
 
[youtube:3ne9212e]SLZq2iaMpXY[/youtube:3ne9212e]
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101121/ap_ ... y_backlash

this isn't just being insulted and teated like some scumbag criminal. that's bad enough.

years ago when i was beginning my career I would go to science fiction conventions and sell my art at their art shows. it was very instructive: I learned what the "public" wanted......and I made a little money.

the local conventions could be traveled to by train, or car. those farther away needed a plane. and I would travel with a very large portfolio which could NOT be checked in. In those days the stewards would happily place this portfolio of my original work in with stuff they stowed for businessmen. People were fairly relaxed about such accommodation.

I was just another person with a special need. NOT a criminal.

there's no way i could try this today. not that i would need to but that's not the point. no new artist out there can casually get on a plane with his or her work. it will never happen. you have to twist yourself into a pretzel to get yourself and your valuable work out to where you need it. and if you aren't wealthy this makes it almost impossible.

that article i post a link to above mentions how the TSA doesn't want to reveal it's strategies which is why they are reluctant to list what can and can't be brought onto a plane. they are afraid that revealing everything will alert the criminals.
this is bullshit.

criminals know people have locks on their doors. that's why they walk around neighborhoods looking for the WEAK link. the home where the security is weakest......the easiest to break in.

you don't have to build a 10 foot wall to prevent a theft. just make it inconvenient.

the airlines don't have to make it impossible for everyone to travel like they are doing now. they have to THINK like a criminal. they have to examine each airport....the layout...where the people go, where the luggage goes, where employees go.... and try to figure out how THEY would disrupt the flow. how would THEY try to create the best and most destruction.

from that you have an idea of what to do. and do it silently so no one realizes it's happening. no one realizes that a trap has been placed. so that IF a criminal tries to do something he gets caught red-handed.

if you wish to catch a criminal you have to use your BRAIN.......... not brawn.
 
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