The Muhammad Movie

[Glaucus]

of course what pisses me off about all the 'Holocaust' talk is that some jews have co-oped the whole thing as if THEY were the ONLY ones who suffered and died.

If it makes you feel any better, some Jews don't actually like the term "holocaust", mostly due to it's ancient Greek roots and it's meaning of pagan sacrifice (the root of the words holo & caust bean to burn in whole, which was often done in pagan rituals back then). Jews have their own word for the holocaust that many prefer but most non-Jews aren't aware of it.

The wikipedia entry on holocaust is kinda interesting. It certainly states plenty more people other than Jews were killed, however only three groups were targeted aggressively: the disabled, Jews and Gypsies. Perhaps they were also the easiest to spot, communists and homosexuals could more easily blend in for example. Personally I have no issues with how Jews deal with the holocaust, but it is somewhat interesting as to how quiet the gypsies are. However, maybe not so much once you realize that they're still the bottom rung on the social economic scale and most people still tend to crap on them and automatically assume them to be criminals. Their overall culture and lifestyle, either chosen or forced upon them, has them preferring to stay unnoticed and do what they can to not draw attention to themselves.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

If it makes you feel any better, some Jews don't actually like the term "holocaust",

Something that I always thought interesting - a burnt offering for a sacrifice. That gives it a religious meaning - it is the same word that Tyndel used to describe what Abraham was going to do with Isaac. If you check dictionaries online then you will tend to find "The Holocaust" at the top of the list. Note, it is a proper name.

However, I have a 1974 Compact Oxford Dictionary in the house (and by compact they mean in comes in a mere two giant volumes with a magnifying glass so you can read the tiny text) and holocaust is defined as a burnt offering, or being totally consumed by fire or, finally, a devastation of a large number of people. The Shoa is NOT mentioned and that was just 1974. In the first few decades after the war it really wasn't the biggest thing on people's minds but it has been heavily promoted to become the sacred thing we know it as today. Living in our own time we just assume that it was always so, but in the first decades after the war people had enough of their own problems to be getting on with - but they got over them.

The wikipedia entry on holocaust is kinda interesting. It certainly states plenty more people other than Jews were killed, however only three groups were targeted aggressively: the disabled, Jews and Gypsies. Perhaps they were also the easiest to spot, communists and homosexuals could more easily blend in for example.

I've often said that if Hitler had stopped at just the gays and the gypsies he'd have been fine - nobody would have cared. Part of that is that the gypsies had no political organization or power and they still don't while Jews were prominent in industry and banking and the intelligentsia. The Jews weren't helpless nobodies. Of course there were some helpless nobody Jews like those in Poland and heading east but the Jews of the Industrialized west didn't actually like those Jews and thought them uncivilized - no love lost there - but nonetheless Jews. The Jews, in Hitler's mind, were a legitimate political target and as for the Communists, as far as Hitler was concerned, all the Jews that weren't bankers WERE Communists so that was a two-for.

If the Jews occupied the same social stratum as the Gypsies the world still wouldn't care about the Shoa.

 

[faethor]

The Jews were also a legitimate religious target. The Catholic Church's official position was blaming the Jews for the death of Christ. It wasn't until 1965 when they turned that around. Interesting enough we see the church not excommunicate Hitler. The Pope didn't say anything negative about Hitler until after the end WWII. Also, the Catholic Church didn't take action in any other Country - Austria, Ukraine, Lithuania for example - where the same activity was taking place. If memory serves there were letters of support to some of those nations. Mein Kampf spelled out Hitler's view of Jewish guilt and can be seen as one basis for the ethnic cleansing.

 

[Glaucus]

However, I have a 1974 Compact Oxford Dictionary in the house (and by compact they mean in comes in a mere two giant volumes with a magnifying glass so you can read the tiny text) and holocaust is defined as a burnt offering, or being totally consumed by fire or, finally, a devastation of a large number of people. The Shoa is NOT mentioned and that was just 1974.

You must also remember that back in those days, dictionaries were more conservative and slower to adopt new words, and thus, they may have lagged behind actual usage by as much as a decade. They still lag today but it's only a few years or so. Except of course of the internet dictionaries that allow anyone to contribute.

I've often said that if Hitler had stopped at just the gays and the gypsies he'd have been fine - nobody would have cared.

Well, the fact is, at the time of the war, not too many people cared about the Jews either. Although, it's arguable that many people just didn't know of the death camps (although their 2nd class citizenship was well known and no one really cared about that). I doubt even the Jews knew what was coming, otherwise they would have fled far in advance.

But we should thank the Jews for bringing the horrors to our attention, because without that it may have gone completely unnoticed. The Armenians suffered an equally horrific loss, but we don't see footage of concentration camps or death ovens and we certainly don't see many videos of mass graves. That may be because that footage doesn't exist or that Turkey has been very thorough in suppressing it, or just that Armenians aren't that great at bringing it to our attention. Well, one thing is for sure, Turkey has been good at suppressing any mention of the Armenian genocide. Now, the funny thing about the Jews is that they're blamed for making themselves the biggest victim, however, the Jews have always identified with the Armenians. I unfortunately lost the link for this, but there was to be a Jewish - Armenian genocide memorial (or something along those lines), but back then Israel and Turkey were still allies and Turkey placed an amazing amount of pressure on the Jews to ditch the Armenians. They should have ditched the Turks back then, and shame on them for that, but they did as they were asked. Now I'm happy to hear that they are taking serious steps to recognize the Armenian genocide as they seem to no longer care so much about how Turkey will (mis)behave afterwards. It's about time.

Part of that is that the gypsies had no political organization or power and they still don't while Jews ran were prominent in industry and banking and the intelligentsia.

Hitler targeted groups that were already unpopular. However, the Jews were certainly more capable of pointing out their victimhood, and good for them. We tell rape and abuse victims to speak out against their aggressors as that's the only way to fight back and fight back they must for the sake of everyone. Despite that people in society still like to blame the victim. Perhaps staying silent is a quicker and less painful way to get over victimhood, but it only helps that one victim and doesn't help prevent more victims.

 

[cecilia]

Perhaps staying silent is a quicker and less painful way to get over victimhood, but it only helps that one victim and doesn't help prevent more victims.

it's the only way marginalized minorities in the US ever got their civil rights...or at least got more of them.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

You must also remember that back in those days, dictionaries were more conservative and slower to adopt new words, and thus, they may have lagged behind actual usage by as much as a decade.

Yes, they were more conservative and slower to adopt popular usage but 1974 was only 30 years after the war. Sure there had been the Nuremberg trials but the mythic dimensions of the Holocaust hadn't been built yet. Then it was just an horrific war crime (and as many like to point out when they are committing war crimes "s#!t happens in a war" and Nuremberg that this was a crime it was not the highest crime; the crime of starting a war of aggression was judged the most egregious because from that all the other crimes follow. The idea of the Holocaust didn't really start to take hold until it was popularized by translations of personal accounts like Elie Wiesel's "Night" in the mid fifties and 'The Diary of Anne Frank" in the early 60s, and even then not so much until those books were made part of the school curriculum.

Well, the fact is, at the time of the war, not too many people cared about the Jews either. Although, it's arguable that many people just didn't know of the death camps (although their 2nd class citizenship was well known and no one really cared about that). I doubt even the Jews knew what was coming, otherwise they would have fled far in advance.

Some Jews DID flee in advance. Many countries didn't want to take them though. The US accepted some under a quota but were not keen on taking them because they worried they may enter the US but end up working as agents of the Nazis (blackmailed into cooperation to protect relatives back in Germany). The British didn't want them either. Before the war and even up to 1941 Hitler was negotiating with other countries to allow him to deport Jews. The only place Germany managed to deport any number of Jews to was Palestine.

But we should thank the Jews for bringing the horrors to our attention, because without that it may have gone completely unnoticed. The Armenians suffered an equally horrific loss,

And twenty million died in the Ukraine under Stalin. But most people just move on once the generation directly affected dies off. Some people have a victim culture though and find that victimhood defines them. In some cultures they will actively compete in stories of suffering the way fishermen compete with fish stories because suffering is a mark of righteousness. A sense of persecution has long been recognized as a way to bind people in community - just check out the early Christians and how they came together under the heavy persecutions of the Roman empire (that never really happened) or the Fundies who come together under the persecution of the War on Christianity which also isn't happening. Persecution cultures are often self fulfilling and self reinforcing and it's not a criticism of any one person or group of people, just normal human psychology and one of the reasons that extremists of all stripes are so committed to their causes. However ...

However, the Jews were certainly more capable of pointing out their victimhood, and good for them. We tell rape and abuse victims to speak out against their aggressors as that's the only way to fight back and fight back they must for the sake of everyone. Despite that people in society still like to blame the victim. Perhaps staying silent is a quicker and less painful way to get over victimhood, but it only helps that one victim and doesn't help prevent more victims.

A position which I once had sympathy for "Never Again". It is a noble sentiment and has my full endorsement but as a child in school I thought "Never Again" meant never again anywhere to anyone. In the fullness of time, having watched many slaughters unfold in the news and many slaughtering tyrants and how we back them or denounce them only on a geostrategic basis, and the behaviour of the Jewish state and the story of its creation it has become apparent that "Never Again" mean never again to Jews (and not even really that if they are black Jews, but never again to the ruling Jews). Just like everyone else, the Jews have a leadership which claims to speak for all of them - but only look out for themselves.

 

[Glaucus]

And twenty million died in the Ukraine under Stalin. But most people just move on once the generation directly affected dies off. Some people have a victim culture though and find that victimhood defines them.

Ya maybe, but are you saying that the Jews love to play victim more so than Ukrainians? About 10 years back I bought this funky metal vodka flask off ebay. It was cool to me because it was an old Soviet flask, with the Soviet star and featured Lenin's face on the front. I thought I'd show it off but to my surprise my half Ukrainian, half French friend, born and raised here in Canada, took great offense to it. Why? Because those damn Russians (yes, it was Stalin who killed the Ukrainians, but Lenin was close enough for her) killed off so many of them. I respectfully put that flask away and it has remained that way since. And I can also say with great confidence that most Greeks would be quite passionate about any Turkish symbols and for similar reasons - and the Greek-Turkish history predates WW2. If you're suggesting that Jews are somehow more sensitive to their victimhood I would strongly disagree. If you're saying they are more likely to discuss their victimhood, well I say more power to them.

In some cultures they will actively compete in stories of suffering the way fishermen compete with fish stories because suffering is a mark of righteousness. A sense of persecution has long been recognized as a way to bind people in community - just check out the early Christians and how they came together under the heavy persecutions of the Roman empire (that never really happened) or the Fundies who come together under the persecution of the War on Christianity which also isn't happening.

True, except that persecution isn't always imaginary. And you're not paranoid if they really are after you. I know plenty of people who hate Jews for no apparent reason. It's not science fiction, it's real.

A position which I once had sympathy for "Never Again". It is a noble sentiment and has my full endorsement but as a child in school I thought "Never Again" meant never again anywhere to anyone.

You're correct that the "Never Again" hasn't lived up to it's promise, but it has lead to more awareness. We now have words like "genocide". The problem is we as a race have a hard time intervening even when we know something is wrong. And intervening is pretty much the only way to stop a rampaging psychopath, but we often can't tell the difference between psychopath and victim either. Or even worse, we tend to believe the victim may deserve it. Still, I'm not sure what your point here is in regards to victims speaking out. Why does it almost seem like you think Jews should just take their beating and keep quiet?

 

[cecilia]

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

Ya maybe, but are you saying that the Jews love to play victim more so than Ukrainians?

I lived in Alberta for years and there is a big Ukrainian population there and they definitely do remember the Holodomor : can't use the word Holocaust for anything but the Shoah now because it's trademarked - well, not in fact but effectively. While holocaust has been used to describe other slaughters like the Armenians the term Holocaust is now exclusive to the Shoah and the Armenians had to settle for the more generic "Armenian Genocide" - though even there, with genocide being a crime against humanity there are those who don't like to grant them even that.

However, Ukrainians have not been able to extort anything from anyone based on that victimhood. Sure, they bare it but they can't capitalize on it. I tried to find out if victims had received compensation but the only people I found in the Ukraine who were getting compensation were Ukrainian Jews and they were once again getting money from Germany.

True, except that persecution isn't always imaginary. And you're not paranoid if they really are after you. I know plenty of people who hate Jews for no apparent reason. It's not science fiction, it's real.

Some persecution is self fulfilling. You know that guy who always says that everyone is out to get him and whines about how everyone is unfair no matter how much you try to help him. Eventually you either thump him or drop him as a person you hang out with and THEN - he was right all along - everyone hates him and the world is against him. And that sort of thinking can also legitimize a lot of bad behaviour. If the whole world is bad then it's OK to fight back by any means necessary. Scientologists called it "fairgaming" the "suppressives". Other groups have their own rationalizations - like being somehow superior to other because of an imaginary being.

The problem is we as a race have a hard time intervening even when we know something is wrong. And intervening is pretty much the only way to stop a rampaging psychopath, but we often can't tell the difference between psychopath and victim either. Or even worse, we tend to believe the victim may deserve it.

By "race" I presume you mean "human race". Perhaps "species" would be a better term.
It's not that we have a hard time intervening when something is wrong (though self preservation does kick in), but we have a hard time realizing that it is wrong when it is happening to other people. When bad things happen to people there is a tendency to think that it is because of something the people did. That's partly because we hate to think that a bad thing could happen to us for absolutely no reason. It is threatening to our sense of control over our lives. Almost nothing can change that deep belief outside of something bad happening to you over which you have absolutely no control.
The other thing is that people won't intervene if they agree with the psychopath and people are malleable. If you are told that crazy people are coming to rape your women, burn your churches and make fun of your gods then you might be quite glad that at least someone is willing to deal harshly with the crazy people. Maybe the Jews are undermining innate Aryan supremacy or the Muslims hate you for your freedom and want to dirty bomb you, etc.

Still, I'm not sure what your point here is in regards to victims speaking out. Why does it almost seem like you think Jews should just take their beating and keep quiet?

Go ahead and talk about it. Sure. But it can never be used as a justification for doing horrible things to other people. Because you were abused as a child you cannot claim the right to abuse children. Because your grandparents were killed it doesn't give you the right to kill other people's children. Does the Holocaust give anyone the right to deny the suffering of the Nakba? No. The Holocaust is a great human tragedy but is cynically used as a fig leaf to cover crimes. No past wrong can morally give a people the right to wrong others. Only the Holocaust is used this way.

 

[robert l. bentham]

However, Ukrainians have not been able to extort anything from anyone based on that victimhood. Sure, they bare it but they can't capitalize on it. I tried to find out if victims had received compensation but the only people I found in the Ukraine who were getting compensation were Ukrainian Jews and they were once again getting money from Germany..

deadbeat 47% ers, always lookin for a handout and someone to strong arm the world till they get it...

 

[Glaucus]

Go ahead and talk about it. Sure. But it can never be used as a justification for doing horrible things to other people. Because you were abused as a child you cannot claim the right to abuse children. Because your grandparents were killed it doesn't give you the right to kill other people's children. Does the Holocaust give anyone the right to deny the suffering of the Nakba? No. The Holocaust is a great human tragedy but is cynically used as a fig leaf to cover crimes. No past wrong can morally give a people the right to wrong others.

I completely agree. I believe the Jews have every right to say what they say about what was done to them. And you're right that nothing can provide cover for their own crimes. But most Jews who speak of the holocaust are not covering their crimes. I think some of the things the state of Israel is doing is criminal, but at the same time I know that the Israeli government is a fractured and unstable one and that many Jews oppose it and it's policies. And on top of that, Jews in Israel are not only victims of the NAZIs, but also of Palestinian terror campaigns and of course of their own bad leadership that perpetuates the fear and death. Of course Palestinians are also victims of this as well, which is why I feel sorry for both sides. I can separate the holocaust from modern day events, and I think so can most people. I think the reason Israel gets a pass by the US has more to do with the strategic value than holocaust sympathy. And in a way, modern Jews are also victims of US foreign policy - they just don't know it yet.

 

[faethor]

Don't forget the religious value. There clearly are Americans, and American politicians, that believe Jesus will return in our lifetime. They support Israel because the Jews must be there to rebuild the Temple Mount and bring about the second coming of Christ.

 

[FluffyMcDeath]

I completely agree.

I completely agree as well, but can't you leave me a crumb of disagreement? I was enjoying the argument!

 

[metalman]

T The Pope didn't say anything negative about Hitler until after the end WWII. Also, the Catholic Church didn't take action in any other Country - Austria, Ukraine, Lithuania for example - where the same activity was taking place.

Telegraphed to the Vatican on Pius's XII death in 1958: "When fearful martyrdom came to our people in the decade of Nazi terror, the voice of the Pope was raised for the victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out on the great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace." --Golda Meir

"As a result of this papal initiative, in Rome a larger percentage of the Jews were saved than in any other city then under German occupation. Of the 5,715 Roman Jews listed by the Germans for deportation, 4,715 were given shelter in more than 150 Catholic institutions in the city; of these, 477 were given sanctuary within the confines of the Vatican itself."

"the Pope opened his summer estate at Castel Gandolfo to take in several thousand Jews and authorized monasteries throughout the German-occupied areas of Italy to do likewise"

"an "International Ghetto" was established in the northern section of Budapest, in which more than 40 safe houses were established, marked by the Vatican emblem, and 8 other neutral countries. Into these safe houses, 25,000 Jews found refuge, and survived. Elsewhere in Budapest, Roman Catholic institutions hid several thousand more Jews in their cellars and attics."

"Pius XII took a direct part in sending money to support the Jewish refugees from Fiume. He also sent considerable sums of money to other rescuers of Jews in Italy, and to the French Capuchin monk, Father Pierre-Marie Benoit, from whose monastery in Marseille several thousand French Jews were smuggled across the borders of neutral Spain and Switzerland."

"Pius XII responded to Mussolini's anti-Jewish legislation by appointing several Jewish scholars who had been dismissed from the university to positions inside the Vatican"

"In his first encyclical as Pope, Pius XII specifically rejected Nazism and expressly mentioned the Jews, noting that in the Catholic Church there is "neither Gentile nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision." The head of the Gestapo, Heinrich Mueller, commented that the encyclical was "directed exclusively against Germany." So outspoken was it that the Royal Air Force and the French air force dropped 88,000 copies of it over Germany."

 

[Glaucus]

Wow, Metalman said something good about the French air force!

 

[metalman]

Wow, Metalman said something good about the French air force!

The invasion of Poland was Sept, 1939
the encyclical as Pope, Pius XII was delivered Oct, 1939
The phony war was from Sept, 1939 to May 9th, 1940
the French didn't start surrender talks until June 12th 1940

 

[faethor]

@Metalman.
After 200K were dead in Lithunia the Pope issued some Pslams to Jews saying accept your fate. Yeah he hid 5K, good for that 5K but nothing of worth the other millions. The Roman Catholic Church was one of the best informed organizations outside of Nazi Germany itself. There was no real action until their homeland in Rome was in jeapordy.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/pius.html

 

[cecilia]

this is really funny. Well, it is to me

Reading University's Atheist Society 'Thrown Out Of Fair Over Blasphemous Mohammed Pineapple'

The ..Reading University Atheist, Humanist and Secularist Society.. displayed a pineapple bearing the name Mohammed on their stall, to "encourage discussion about blasphemy, religion, and liberty".

"We wanted to celebrate the fact that we live in a country in which free speech is protected, and where it is lawful to call a pineapple by whatever name one chooses," a society spokesperson said.

unfortunately some uptight prudes don't have a sense of humor (or could that be "prunes"??)

The society refused to remove the fruit due to their "commitment to freedom of expression", to which they were told by the RUSU member: "Either the pineapple goes, or you do."

The society was then "forced to leave the venue"

damn!!! fruit bigotry!!!!

The society has voiced its disappointment at the chain of events, saying: "Our intent in displaying a pineapple labeled 'Mohammed' was to draw attention to cases where religion has been used to limit freedom of expression and other fundamental rights."

indeed!