The revolt is underway.

Again Republicans are for 'jobs, jobs, jobs' unless those jobs are government paid. I see this as nothing less than a race to the bottom. Cut workers, thereby throw them on the streets. The largest bills in States are often social services related. Which is one significant way homeless take care of themselves and families. But, those are being cut too. Increase unemployment, decrease care of the improvished is this really the nation you want? Do you feel bad you missed out on the depression?
 
faethor said:
Again Republicans are for 'jobs, jobs, jobs' unless those jobs are government paid. I see this as nothing less than a race to the bottom. Cut workers, thereby throw them on the streets. The largest bills in States are often social services related. Which is one significant way homeless take care of themselves and families. But, those are being cut too. Increase unemployment, decrease care of the improvished is this really the nation you want? Do you feel bad you missed out on the depression?

Money to pay for overpaid gov jobs isn't created out of thin air.

Errr, scratch that. The money to pay these gov employees IS made out of thin air and that is what is killing us. Do you know what gov employees make compared to the private sector? Have you seen Obama's budget proposal? Try as you may, you cannot blame Bush for Obama creating the largest budget deficit of all time. Do you know what happens when you create money out of thin air? Have you tried buying anything lately? Real life inflation is running about 11% annually which is worse than the Carter years. This is going to get far, far worse.

The same thing goes for you defending nonsense like the FL high speed rail project. You don't care how many billions it will bleed annually as long as a couple dozen people are employeed temporarily? The long term effect of all this nonsense means MORE unemployement and a far lower standard of living for everyone. I guess we can all start standing in line for bread and toilet paper like the soviets in another 10-15 years after the military breaks the back of nationwide protests.
 
Money to pay for overpaid gov jobs isn't created out of thin air.

Errr, scratch that. The money to pay these gov employees IS made out of thin air and that is what is killing us.
The problem here is the anti-union practices isn't about money. The union offered to sitdown and talk about how they could contribute more to healthcare expenses, more to retirement expenses, and impact to Salaries. The negotiating table is where this discussion takes place. The Wisconsin govenor didn't even bother to show up. Removing the right to assemble for workers takes away the negotiating table.

I want firemen who fight our home fires and rescue to sit down and work with administration so administration knows more about how cuts impact the ability to save lives. I want police to have a voice about how many on the street make for safer streets and less likely they'll become injured or die in the line of work. The eliminiation of the right of assembly only serves to move all the power to the government.

It's funny that Republicans are afraid of the government's power. It appears the thing they are more fearful of is the right of the people.

Do you know what gov employees make compared to the private sector?
The problem here is not the public sector it's the private. Your solution to a broken private sector is to break the public sector too. The decline of unions track the decline of the middle-class. Because Unions made the middle class.

Oh enjoy our weekend. And don't forget you enjoy the weekend because of Unions.
 
faethor said:
Oh enjoy our weekend. And don't forget you enjoy the weekend because of Unions.

I work monday :roflmao:
 
Red,

You often talk about 'will of the people'. Aren't you forgetting this? Afterall it was by will of the people (democratic vote of the people in service) that the Union was established, remains in place, establishes by-laws, establishes directions, and selects it's leaders. If the people willed to not have Union a similar vote would occur and the Union would be disbanded. Isn't is the will of 1 person, the Governor, that the issue is coming up? (Perhaps at best 1 party?) He's trying to will the choice of the people (to be in a Union for representation at the workplace) away.

Again,in Wisconsin we had a Union willing to sit down and negatively impact workers income by having more of the income contributed to benefits such as insurance and retirement. The Governor simply refused to sit down to talk. So it wasn't as if the Union was disagreeable or negotiations were at an impass due to the Union.

Also don't forget the Wisconsin Governor had a surplus until the boneheaded Republicans spent it. LINK and in classic style is blaming the deficit on the workers.
 
Somehow in all this, everybody is missing the point that it is the government workers that are in panic mode. You know, those folks that produce exactly zero. Those folks that contribute nothing but a drag on the economy. Those folks that depend on other folks (tax payers) to pay their salaries, health benefits, and retirement.

People are tired of paying those salaries, tired of the exponential growth in government workers, and the attitude that they're entitled to better pay, health benefits, and retirement than the ones that have to pay the bill.

It is the exact same thing that Fluffy always rails against, except he thinks it is the rich folks doing it.
 
Fade said:
Somehow in all this, everybody is missing the point that it is the government workers that are in panic mode. You know, those folks that produce exactly zero. Those folks that contribute nothing but a drag on the economy. Those folks that depend on other folks (tax payers) to pay their salaries, health benefits, and retirement.
These people produce zero? Bridges produce about $1.75 for every $1 spent. These are the people that build bridges. Fire Fighters produce the reduction, or elimination, of property destruction. Police and attorneys, obviously, produce quite a bit as US jails are thriving. Teachers produce an educated workforce. I'd argue that unemployment check writers produce about the same as investment bankers they both simply move money around.

And of course management and accountants collaborate the workflow as they do in private. Though I'd argue that local governments have more regulations than a local business and therefore there is more to track and adhere to. More points of coordination makes things a bit more difficult.

People are tired of paying those salaries, tired of the exponential growth in government workers, and the attitude that they're entitled to better pay, health benefits, and retirement than the ones that have to pay the bill.
I see this argument as a fail. It's one that says private sector has had a salary decline so the requirement must be to decline public workers. Instead of sinking all boats let's work to bring all boats up. Instead let's fix private!

And bringing this back to Wisconsin the public workers offered to pay more of their own benefits, therefore bringing salaries down. The Governor refused to even discuss it. So this 'paid more' point is moot in my mind because this is already on the table.

To further demonstrate this is politically motivated look at the unions impacted. The State Police Union is not. They are some of the higest paid workers. They also backed the Governor during the election. Teachers Union is impacted. They are some of the lowest paid workers. They didn't back the Governor's election.

It is the exact same thing that Fluffy always rails against, except he thinks it is the rich folks doing it.
Federal workers salary are about $68K/year. State workers about $48K/year. The average private sector about $45K/year and the local teacher close to $41K/year.

According the to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics an accountant working in the private sector makes $71K/year. The same level of education in a local government is paid $64K. I'd argue the accountant's private company benefits are likely better than the local government worker.

And don't forget if spending stimulates the economy it doesn't matter where the money orginated. They spend money into private industry.

Circling back to your point on who pays salaries I'd argue Citizens pay all salaries be it public or private. A Citizen has a choice. Either pay Taxes is in Wisconsin for Wisconsin public workers or pay taxes in Alabama for Alabama public workers. And a Citizen has a choice, for example, when you need toliet paper do you want to pay the Target worker salary or the Walmart worker salary? When you spend $5 on Taxes or for Toliet Paper it's the same you pay someone's salary.
 
There is a simple response to every one of your points.

The states that pay their workers the most, are the states that are in the most financial trouble, and there is no way you can get around that fact!
 
Your simple fact is not a fact in the case of Wisconsin. Wisconsin had a surplus prior to going into this session. This means all workers and all benefits are payable at the current rates. Instead Republicans gave away the surplus and then some. Your 'fact' blames the workers. Really the trouble here is the horrid management, aka Republicans.

Insert the same thing into a private business. Your business is on a trend to make a $100M profit. You hire a new management team. In less then a year the management team comes to you and gives you the news that they've reorganized their business and it'll now be taking a $130 Million loss. Their recommendation is to cut the workers salaries to make up for it. Would you want this management team in place?

And having the team back in place is likely a question that the cheeseheads will be asking themselves.. There's been talk of recalls. Various representatives can be recalled now. The Gov. would be jan 2012 at the earliest. It may be the will of the people.
 
Re: The revolution is underway.

Let me just get a couple of things out of the way before I start my rant. :)
[youtube:2tqyudao]TrRN9UWgISE[/youtube:2tqyudao]

Egypt is a worker resolution

The revolution started long before the demonstrations in Tahrir Square, and it will continue for a long time to come. Workers everywhere have been rebelling against the miserable conditions, slave wages and "privatization", the crown jewel of neoliberalism. The privatization of state industries in Egypt is the proximate cause of the current uprising. It's led to a general slide in living standards to the point where people would rather face the policeman's truncheon than endure more-of-the-same.
Egypt has been suffering the same changes that have been killing the economies of all the first world countries.
243994594.jpg


In Bahrain the security forces shot up demonstrators killing (among others) a two year old child.
[youtube:2tqyudao]fwnUQcKXmMM[/youtube:2tqyudao]
(Bahrain is a big deal for the US because the US 5th fleet is head quartered in that country and loss of a friendly government would make things potentially very awkward for the US empire - perhaps the king has been encouraged to be more ... "persuasive" with the protesters.

However, the crowds are back. Also people are protesting in Yemen and Djibouti and Libya. Look on a map and check the major oil transportation choke points an you can see how troubling this is from an energy security point of view for the US.

And now we have Wisconsin with a governor who is contemplating using the National Guard to deal with worker unrest.

They are marching in Ohio too.
 
Re: The revolution is underway.

FluffyMcDeath said:
And now we have Wisconsin with a governor who is contemplating using the National Guard to deal with worker unrest.

They are marching in Ohio too.

Gee who could have predicted this :?: I wish someone on Whyzzat could have predicted this 5 years ago! :roll:

Time to horde guns and freeze dried food. This is going to get far, far worse. I wonder how long until the pro-union crowds turn to violence, blood is spilled on both sides, a state of emergency is declared and the Fema concentration camps get put to use.

-Edit-
One thing that should not be lost in all this, traditionally BLUE states once again. That's where it is starting, FAILED blue states, but it will spread nationwide.
 
Re: The revolution is underway.

redrumloa said:
FluffyMcDeath said:
And now we have Wisconsin with a governor who is contemplating using the National Guard to deal with worker unrest.

They are marching in Ohio too.
Gee who could have predicted this :?: I wish someone on Whyzzat could have predicted this 5 years ago! :roll:

Time to horde guns and freeze dried food. This is going to get far, far worse. I wonder how long until the pro-union crowds turn to violence, blood is spilled on both sides, a state of emergency is declared and the Fema concentration camps get put to use.

-Edit-
One thing that should not be lost in all this, traditionally BLUE states once again. That's where it is starting, FAILED blue states, but it will spread nationwide.
Why do you blame the pro-union crowd turning to violence? They're not the one's bringing in the guns, aka National Guard. Maybe if the Reds listened to the will of the people they wouldn't need to enforce their narrow view at gunpoint.

The only reason it spread to Wisconsin is the recently elected Republican officals decided to spend, and then some, the profits. Had the Republicans not have thrown the state into a deficit Wisconsin wouldn't be in this predictament.

As the great US President Abraham Lincoln once said -- All that serves labor serves the nation. All that harms labor is treason to America. No line can be drawn between these two. If any man tells you he loves America yet hates labor, he is a liar. If any man tells you he trusts America yet fears labor, he is a fool. There is no America without labor; and to fleece the one is to rob the other.
 
cecilia said:
That Abraham really knew his stuff :D
We filter history through rose coloured glasses. The Republicans want to declare themselves the party of Lincoln. Doing so neglects the major changes the Republicans went through in the 1890s, post Lincoln. As well as the major changes in the 1960s. Salon has a good read.
 
Faethor said horse pucky
Bridges, These are the people that build bridges.
Fire Fighters & Police
Teachers
Attorneys
--------------------------------------

Bridges– No they're not. http://roadwaystandards.dot.wi.gov/hcci/ Construction work is contracted out to private companies. State workers mow the grass.

http://etf.wi.gov/faq/wrs.htm
Fire Fighters & Police– They retire at age 50, 15 years before the tax payers can.
Teachers– They retire at age 55, 10 years before the tax payers can.
Military service (up to 4 years) counted toward state workers retirement. Tax payers, 0.
State worker, gets disabled on or off the job, state pays salary for life.
Tax payer, gets disabled on or off the job, reduced pay through SSI.
State Attorneys– Usually end up running for political office!

Still think it's fair to the tax payer footing the bill?
 
And now for that rant I was going to do.

"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist." –Dom Helder Camara

Where did all the money go? Did it really go to the public sector unions? Let's have a look at what a teacher makes in Wisconsin. Hmm. Seems to top out at around $52k. That's around about the median income for the US (the amount at which half the people make more and half make less). Overpaid? Hardly. Unproductive? Well, people can argue about that (and they do) but kids do end up learning stuff so the teachers can't be completely useless.

If you think about how the money flows in a state it isn't even terribly costly to pay public workers well. Immediately a chunk of the money in the salary is taxed back by the state. Money payed to public employees will be mostly spent in the state which will also be taxed at the point where the money is transferred from one person to another and also as the money goes to pay a private sector worker who is making a living providing services to the public sector worker. Money paid to state workers for their work mostly comes back to the government. On the other hand, when large private companies are hired, (and the bigger they are the worse this is) a large chunk of the money goes straight out of state to the big-wigs at the top and the investors around the world and when that money DOES come back it comes back in the form of a loan which just sucks more money out of the state.

Where the money has gone is to Wall St. Partly it's gone to Wall St as interest payments on loans to states and cities. Partly it's gone to Wall St as the financial industry sucked the life out of the working people with credit cards and home refinance and gaming the house prices with false appraisals to convince people to borrow more and more against equity that didn't really exist. And then when it all fell over the finance industry got the government to bail them out. The unions didn't cause any of that but parasitic fraudsters did.

The guys that sank the economy and made huge bonuses are now still making huge bonuses because they got the taxpayer to bail them out. Wall St execs are getting billion dollar payouts each year and 1 billion dollars is enough to pay the salary of 20,000 teachers. Those are the guys who took all the money and they didn't produce anything but bubbles and a crisis.

The amount the Governor of Wisconsin is looking to save from the public sector is only about $150 million which is the cost of keeping 150 soldiers in Afghanistan. $2 trillion has gone into wars and the pay back has been not even close to the expenditures, nor is it ever likely to be. That's $200 billion a year over the last decade which is enough to pay the salaries of $4 million teachers - with the added benefit of there being a considerable number of educated people about with skills. Most of war spending consists of building things that get blown up or blowing up things that are already built - which is the OPPOSITE of capitalism.

The "crisis" is manufactured. It follows in the footprints of four decades of "starve the beast", a strategy to dismantle all public works and good that the "people's" government can do, basically to defang "we the people" and to leave the oligarchs to rule as they wish. The government (particularly the GOP contingent) have funneled public money toward private interests and undermined public programs to the point that the government is worse than broke but NOT because of what it gives to the public.

Social security, for example, isn't broke because it's an unfunded liability. It is broke because the money to fund it was stolen from social security to give to private interests. The government is broke because a small group of powerful interests has turned the country into a giant slush fund to pour money into their favourite projects which they can skim from as they wish.

It's a scam and a fraud and it always happens when there is a big pot of someone else's money sitting around unguarded and the height of hypocrisy is to steal the public money then blame the public sector for the money being gone.

As to what the unions make, you are just jealous (or at least that is what the righties always like to shout when you question whether the multi-billionaires should be allowed to keep all of that money they stole). If wages had kept pace with the cost of living then everyone would be making a union wage but instead the incomes for the non-wealthy leveled off (while the top 1% curve trended strongly upward). The unions are only making what everyone else should be making but instead of recognizing that the right wing media (because if it was left wing it would be have a "labour" section in the news instead of a "business" section) repeat the mantra that the unions are greedy (because they want a pension but The Wall St. execs are merely "worth" the billions they make).

If labour reverses the losses of the last forty years then the Republican voters can kvetch and moan but they will freeload off the victory just as they enjoy their Medicaid and Social Security. If labour was able to push through public healthcare, the Republican voters would use that too and cuss and moan if anyone tried to take it away.

There IS a class war on and the owners of the world are winning because, for the most part part, the other classes don't realize that the war is on. The vast majority of the people are being neutralized by classic divide and conquer. The "republicans" and pitted against the "democrats", the whites against the blacks against the Hispanics etc. And the middle class is being pitted against the poor and against itself. Yeah, America, the problem with the country is all those people who earn 20% more than you do - but please ignore those good people in the suites who make five million percent more than you.

Rant completed.
 
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