What do you guys think of this?

Glaucus

Glaucus

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And for those who can't or are not interested in watching Youtube videos, here's a (long) written article: Missing: The 'Right' Babies

Steve Mosher is telling me about wolves returning to the streets of European towns. Not as part of some Vermont-model wildlife-recovery scenario but as emblems of a harsh comeuppance mankind is due--they're stalking out of the forests like an ancient judgment, coming to claim mankind's ceded land. We're sitting in a sunny Main Street cafe in Front Royal, Virginia--a beautifying ex-industrial town in the Shenandoah Valley that, as the far edge of DC's suburban sprawl, is lately home to a surprising number of conservative Christian ministries. Mosher, president of the Catholic anticontraception lobbyist group Population Research Institute (PRI), describes his grim vision of Europe's future: fields will lie fallow and economies will wither. A great depression will sink over the continent as it undergoes "a decline that Europe hasn't experienced since the Black Death." The comeuppance has a name, one being fervently hawked among a group of Christian-right "profamily" activists hoping to spark a movement in secular Europe. It's called the "demographic winter," a more austere brand of apocalypse than doomsayers normally trade in, evoking not a nuclear inferno but a quiet and cold blanket of snow in which, they charge, "Western Civilization" is laying itself down to die.
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Eh typical propaganda? You know, you have little lies, big lies and statistics? The Jewish threat is just replaced by the Muslim threat.
 
the bottom line is when women realize they can get an education and have choices in life, they choose NOT to be a slave.

not all of them all at the same time, but more and more as time goes on.
 
Points in no particular order:

I'm not a fan of any religion. I don't care if you go to a church or temple or synagogue or mosque ... but I DO care if you try to make ME go.

The children of immigrants from high birthrate countries tend to have birthrates much closer to the host population birthrates. New arrivals will in a generation be breeding at about the rate of the locals. Having a lot of kids in western countries just makes you poor.

Beliefs can be changed. Many people from Muslim countries have not been challenged on their beliefs where they came from in any serious way. New experiences and new surroundings and new customs challenge previously unquestioned beliefs.

50% of newborns are Muslim? There is no such thing as a new born Muslim. Nor can any child be born Christian or Jew or any other doctrine. All newborn human babies are simple human - and as far as religion goes they are a blank slate. They may be raised in one religion but that does not mean it will take.

Bringing large numbers of a certain culture into yours does present a real problem to the control structure of the culture. The old bosses have authority often through the local religious structures. The West being predominantly Christian is governed partly through the Vatican. In the US the Vatican is still the largest quasi government but the local Baptist churches are trying to build their power but they are fractured and can never agree with each other.

Islam has shown itself to be a good controller of human populations. I don't think the elite would care too much whether the populations were ordered by Islam or by the Vatican though they are probably happier to keep with the devil they know. The Saudi Royals have managed to stay in power quite well with the cooperation of the Wahabist Imams, I'm sure western leaders could happily co-exist with Imams just as well as with Bishops.

The Muslims will suffer from attrition which is as scary for them as their influx is to the locals. Even Jews and Sikhs etc have trouble with out mixing in marriage and culture.

I personally think that the cultures most vulnerable to rising Islam are the ones that are already deeply religious. Believing one nutty thing makes it easier to convert to a different nutty thing. On this grounds we can have hope. Atheism is the fastest growing "religious" identity in the US.
 
Thanks for the Snopes link Robert.

First of all, I'd like to say I find the low birth rate troubling. Putting the immigration issue completely aside, a low birth rate will cause significant problems in the future. The pension system alone will be under great stress as there will be no one really to support it. Although technology will continue to improve and increase productivity, a workforce larger then the amount of pensioners is always preferred.

Interestingly, immigration can help counter a low birth rate. Fluffy, I think you made some valid points. Overall I think any particular culture can absorb only so many immigrants of an alien culture at any given time, and for several reasons. First there's the culture shock for both the immigrants and the natives. For a small nation like Greece, this can be significant as Greeks already feel as though they are surrounded by enemies, importing "enemies" into their land is very alarming to many Greeks and I'm seeing reports of random acts of violence against Immigrants. Secondly, there's a cost to bring the immigrants up to speed. Importing people from poor and underfunded nations require educating them to the host nation's standards so that they can learn the language and to be productive.

As for Muslims entering Europe specifically, I can say as a liberal atheist that it does concern me. It's not so much that Islam is more restrictive that Christianity, it's that the Western liberals have fought back the over reaching power of the Church over the course of a few centuries. Christianity, in Europe at least, has for the most part been defanged. If Islam was to sweep across Europe then I feel it would reset the clock back several hundreds of years. Like you said Fluffy, religion is about power (and that movie Agora you pointed us to illustrates that quite nicely). A new religion would be like a new source of power and I fear it could send us back into the dark ages at least in terms of cultural values. Heck, the simple thought that Western women could be banned from wearing a bikini (never mind Dutch women bathing in the nude) is enough to oppose such a trend! Yes, I do love my Western decadence.

And here's the real irony. The ones opposing the Muslim immigration the most is the Christian Right. As Cecilia noticed, the Christian Right's agenda involves far more then just Muslim immigration but attack also woman's rights, gay rights and other liberties common in Western nations. I have a hard time taking the side of the Christian Right mostly for the same reasons I can't accept the conservatism of Islam. I see the Christian Right attempting to exploit this issue to push their agenda, to scare people back to Christianity and by doing so restore some of the Christian dogmatic values on everyone.

So as an atheist, I'm not sure what the right answer is. But here's one possibility: End the wars in the Middle East and restore stability and prosperity and we might see that Muslims will choose to stay in Muslim countries because THEY want to stay there. Not an easy thing to do, but it would probably achieve the desired goal: slow down or even reverse the Islamic immigration into Western nations and not allow the Christian right to exploit this to their own advantage. Unfortunately, the Christian Right seems to be at odds with this plan. Which is too bad as this would need to be done within the next decade or so.
 
Glaucus said:
Thanks for the Snopes link Robert.
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Don't mention it.
My Bible-thumping, islamophobic Uncle sent me the same video a few months back and I always check the accuracy of his often alarmist and exaggerated propaganda, so I already knew some of it was bogus.
A quick google-search turned up the Snopes link.

First of all, I'd like to say I find the low birth rate troubling. Putting the immigration issue completely aside, a low birth rate will cause significant problems in the future. The pension system alone will be under great stress as there will be no one really to support it.
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You are correct in as much as the pension system could be under stress. Longer life expectancy won't help. However, retirement ages will go up around the world. This is already happening.

I'm seeing reports of random acts of violence against Immigrants.
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Alas, t'was ever, and will always be, thus.

Importing people from poor and underfunded nations require educating them to the host nation's standards so that they can learn the language and to be productive.
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That is not necessarily the case and in my own, admittedly limited experience, simply untrue.

As for Muslims entering Europe specifically, I can say as a liberal atheist that it does concern me. It's not so much that Islam is more restrictive that Christianity, it's that the Western liberals have fought back the over reaching power of the Church over the course of a few centuries. Christianity, in Europe at least, has for the most part been defanged. If Islam was to sweep across Europe then I feel it would reset the clock back several hundreds of years.
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Valid points and I tend to agree with you here, in as much as it is a *little* concerning but not something that's likely to keep anyone but the most paranoid from sleeping at night.

Yes, I do love my Western decadence.
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As do I and I'd also argue for more but that's a whole other debate.

I see the Christian Right attempting to exploit this issue to push their agenda, to scare people back to Christianity and by doing so restore some of the Christian dogmatic values on everyone.
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The reason you see that is because that's exactly what it is.
Why do you think my Uncle sent me propaganda like that video in the first place? Hey, you don't know him so how could you know? Well, it was for the very reason you state.

So as an atheist, I'm not sure what the right answer is.
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Well, that's one of the things that makes us atheist. ;-)
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
The children of immigrants from high birthrate countries tend to have birthrates much closer to the host population birthrates. New arrivals will in a generation be breeding at about the rate of the locals. Having a lot of kids in western countries just makes you poor.
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Do you think having lots of kids affects a couple's personal wealth to a lesser degree in a Third World country? If you can barely feed yourself, having a few kids is surely not improving your situation. (In the short-term anyway.)

I doubt the average financial cost of raising a child is truly the primary reason why most Western civilizations struggle with shrinking populations.
 
JoBBo said:
Do you think having lots of kids affects a couple's personal wealth to a lesser degree in a Third World country?
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It really depends on the environment you are in. Partly we have to realize that in really poor places children will die so having extra is insurance.

However, outside of that - where there is no requirement for school children can become productive at around the age of 5. They can produce income and help the family - they are your slave labour. If you can't afford all of them, even then, you can sell some.

I doubt the average financial cost of raising a child is truly the primary reason why most Western civilizations struggle with shrinking populations.
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There are a lot of people who outright can't afford it but mostly it gets in the way of your lifestyle - kids take money away from other things you could be having.

Educating women and allowing them to work helps reduce fertility as well. Keeping women as ignorant breeding stock increases fertility - that is true too. But you still have to be able to afford the children and having both parents working because they can't afford their house without - having a child can present a huge financial burden.
 
JoBBo said:
Do you think having lots of kids affects a couple's personal wealth to a lesser degree in a Third World country? If you can barely feed yourself, having a few kids is surely not improving your situation. (In the short-term anyway.)
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Yes it does. fluffy already responded to this, but I can say that both my parents who grew up in Greece lived in severe poverty. On my dad's side, their family were refugees from the Smyrna catastrophe, which means they lost everything they owned and were forced to live like peasants. My father was lucky to get up to a grade 6 education before dropping out of school and start working full time in his early teens. He was one of 6 children and they all worked and all the earnings went to the family. Even though they lived in a coastal city they hardly ever ate fish until the oldest sister married a fisherman who would steal some fish from the boat he worked on and managed to feed the extended family occasionally. That's why so many Greeks left Greece back in the day. And that's why I said that immigrants need to be educated, because when they come from very poor nations, the children don't always get the best education, or even any education. For example, Afghan girls until recently were barred from school and even the boys rarely went to school because women were barred from teaching.

But back to the point, having many children in poor nations is considered necessary because 1) infant mortality rates are also higher in poor countries so you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket, 2) they can be used to help support the parents by doing chores or working, 3) provide old age security as poor countries tend to have rather crappy pension systems and the elderly depend on their offspring for pretty much everything.

But poor people do also exist in rich nations. Take a look at Northern Canadian native communities which are entrenched in poverty. Here it's a little different as the government provides them with free medical and school, but it also provides mothers with a welfare cheque bonus for each child. This is often abused and there are many mothers who choose to pump out as many babies as they can from an early age to get those government cheques. They can't send those young kids to work because of child labor laws so those kids are of little use to them, which is why my sister sees so many of them in the PICU due to gross neglect and abuse. This creates a cycle of abuse and poverty that's not likely to change so long as the system is the same.

I doubt the average financial cost of raising a child is truly the primary reason why most Western civilizations struggle with shrinking populations.
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I think it is. Here in the West we spend a lot more on our children. My dad grew up running around half naked in the streets and the only game they played was throwing rocks at each other. Today we buy a small fortune of toys, sporting equipment, school supplies and of coarse clothing and quality food for our kids (while others spend another not so small fortune on private schools and secondary education). Raising 6 kids in Canada requires a mountain of cash and I doubt most people could fund that. Economics is a huge factor when it comes to the birth rate. Under that umbrella is of course education of women, which we should all know that the more educated the women are in a society, the less likely they are to get pregnant at young ages.
 
Glaucus said:
My dad grew up running around half naked in the streets and the only game they played was throwing rocks at each other.
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Oh man ... "throwing rocks at each other" was a GREAT game - but it really pissed off the grownups. Usually we just had to go with the safer standby of "shooting each other with our fingers". Far fewer injuries, far fewer broken windows.
 
a society can't be healthy unless it has a really large middle class.

in my opinion
 
I honestly have no idea what that judge is smoking. We do have problems with honor killings and abuse here in Canada, not sure how this sentence is sending the right signal.
 
Glaucus said:
I honestly have no idea what that judge is smoking. We do have problems with honor killings and abuse here in Canada, not sure how this sentence is sending the right signal.
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Maybe the judge is playing the "we're Christian so we're much more merciful than you" card. Maybe sounds crazy but it was a big selling point for Christianity in a lot of places were local tribal justice was much harsher than justice under Christian rule.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Glaucus said:
I honestly have no idea what that judge is smoking. We do have problems with honor killings and abuse here in Canada, not sure how this sentence is sending the right signal.
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Maybe the judge is playing the "we're Christian so we're much more merciful than you" card. Maybe sounds crazy but it was a big selling point for Christianity in a lot of places were local tribal justice was much harsher than justice under Christian rule.
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Perhaps, but anything short of the death penalty could have got that across. Not arguing your point here, but does anyone care to venture a guess as to what the penalty for murder in Chechnya is? The christian angle may be plausible though, the judge does reside in the heart land of Canada's Christian right, so who knows. Still, I can't expect many Albertan's are happy about this.

The problem I see is that many countries like Chechnya are actually trying to clamp down on things like honor killing in large part because they're worried about their image in the international press. However if nations like Canada don't even bother to give honor killers a slap on the wrist, then perhaps even this weak motivation may disappear and we're left with a situation where honor killing is not only allowed in these 3rd world countries but the 1st world as well. If we want to place pressure on these nations to improve their human rights, or woman's rights as in this case, then we need to lead by example.
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Beliefs can be changed. Many people from Muslim countries have not been challenged on their beliefs where they came from in any serious way. New experiences and new surroundings and new customs challenge previously unquestioned beliefs.
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Arrested for plotting an honor killing.

her brother Ashraf said: ‘We are going to get trouble from the community now. It is bad news for our safety, her safety. ‘My younger brother is going to get harassed at college. All our family is going to be harassed by the community because of this
 
metalman said:
Arrested for plotting an honor killing.

her brother Ashraf said: ‘We are going to get trouble from the community now. It is bad news for our safety, her safety. ‘My younger brother is going to get harassed at college. All our family is going to be harassed by the community because of this
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I like the bail conditions:

must not travel to London or contact an unnamed man.
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How are you supposed to know if a man has no name without asking (and therefore contacting) him? Who would not name their child? Huh?

The quotation you originally picked out and without context seemed to give the impression that the family would suffer consequences for something the woman did but in the context of the story it reads more like the consequences to the family from the community are because of the charges against the father and the brother. That would imply that he has some inkling of the attitude of the general population towards killing family members.
 
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