Which is Best for You? The Highest-Mileage Hybrid, the Wonder Plug-in, or the 100% EV?

faethor said:
Batteries have their own impact on the environment to manufacture and discard.
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Sure. One of the costs of discarding Lithium batteries is ALL THAT LITHIUM that you're throwing away. Why would it be discarded when the demand would be so high if everyone needed batteries all the time? When the volumes are there there will be a large market for reprocessed material and a good source of stuff that needs to be reprocessed plus businesses that quickly accumulate material.
 
redrumloa said:
I am really rusty on this stuff, but what about an average joule-mile city/highway?
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Might as well stick with the new EPA that use the horrible eMPG. That does not tell you the real cost on the road. just toss out all the make up name and stick with m/kwh (mile per kilowatthour).
 
FluffyMcDeath said:
Sure. One of the costs of discarding Lithium batteries is ALL THAT LITHIUM that you're throwing away. Why would it be discarded when the demand would be so high if everyone needed batteries all the time? When the volumes are there there will be a large market for reprocessed material and a good source of stuff that needs to be reprocessed plus businesses that quickly accumulate material.
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Lithium batteries can be recyclable and be reuse again. Lithium just another form of very soft metal like clay.
energy-lithium-salt-desert-bolivia-hands_30247_600x450.jpg

⇧ This is what raw lithium salt look like.⇧

lithium.jpg

⇧ lithium ⇧
I got 4 mining lithium companies I am eyeballing on it. The best part is that lithium is not traded on any commodity exchange, but plans are in place to do just that. And you watch, once lithium starts to get traded like any other commodity, and once investors realize how much the auto industry is going to need it, prices have no where to go but up. What sucks is that China is buying up all the lithium it can, and it’s developing its own sources, which are mainly located in Tibet. Hey, maybe that’s another reason why China is so keen on keeping Tibet.
 
@Cybereye:
F1 racing using flywheels. My understanding comes from reading about their use in this part of the automotive industry. Energy density is worse than LiION and slightly better than NiMH. The cost to include the technology is about 1/2 that of LiION. The plus in F1 is partly the fuel savings but also the quick usage of the power that batteries can't provide. And of course flywheels will last longer than batteries and returns are more consistent over the life as the flywheel doesn't degrade. Cars are fairly expensive if one can add say $3K for a flywheel to the price instead of $5K for batteries and see similar MPG usage that would be a win for the consumer. Flywheel, like hybrids, are most benefical in stop and go traffic.

@Fade:
I hear you I too was once part of the there's no replacement for displacement crowd. IMO that era is over. For example, I had a 300+HP 1999 Mustang Cobra. Not too bad on gas I got around 21-22 most of the time and my highest was 26. A decade later one can buy a 305HP base Mustang for close to the same price, as good 0-60 time and 30MPG.

And a truck to pull your boat? A couple of years ago you'd want a 6.x L V8 engine with better than 400 ft-lbs of torque. You'd see about 12-14MPG. Today one can get the V6 turbo Ford which as 420 ft-lbs of torque and 22MPG. And consumers do want this. Fords sell 2:1 over Chevy and it's now nearing 1/2 of the trucks are the V6 or V6 turbo. Some of the people that have hypermilled hybrids to get crazy MPG grabbed the F-150 and hypermilled it. They got 32MPG out of a truck, crazy good. Of course your typical driver will still see close to 20mpg which is again great compared to 12mpg of a couple of years go.
 
faethor said:
@Cybereye:
F1 racing using flywheels. My understanding comes from reading about their use in this part of the automotive industry. Energy density is worse than LiION and slightly better than NiMH. The cost to include the technology is about 1/2 that of LiION. The plus in F1 is partly the fuel savings but also the quick usage of the power that batteries can't provide. And of course flywheels will last longer than batteries and returns are more consistent over the life as the flywheel doesn't degrade. Cars are fairly expensive if one can add say $3K for a flywheel to the price instead of $5K for batteries and see similar MPG usage that would be a win for the consumer. Flywheel, like hybrids, are most benefical in stop and go traffic.
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That is an interest point of view, so the trade off is cost and I am going to bet weigh and able to deal with demanding on power from the flywheel as well. My view seems that F1 racing using flywheels really does not need large storage as well.
 
cybereye said:
That is an interest point of view, so the trade off is cost and I am going to bet weigh and able to deal with demanding on power from the flywheel as well. My view seems that F1 racing using flywheels really does not need large storage as well.
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Here's some numbers:
LiION Hybrid F1: 80HP boost released in 6.7 seconds adds 80 pounds to the car.
Flywheel Hybrid F1: 80HP boost released in 6.5 seconds adds 55 pounds to the car.

Add in the Flywheel won't wear and costs less one can see why F1 is tending this direction. And why companies, such as Volvo and Porsche, are working on a road worthy version. I think this shows enough promise. It's worth testing out and getting a few on the road to see what the results are.
 
faethor said:
Add in the Flywheel won't wear and costs less one can see why F1 is tending this direction. And why companies, such as Volvo and Porsche, are working on a road worthy version. I think this shows enough promise. It's worth testing out and getting a few on the road to see what the results are.
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Better start to keep an eye on the flywheel, but I am going to assume flywheel will not created an energy independence.
 
cybereye said:
Better start to keep an eye on the flywheel, but I am going to assume flywheel will not created an energy independence.
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Flywheels like other storage mechanisms - batteries, hydrogen,- are unlikely to create energy independence. They are storage not generation. They are used in systems to increase the efficency of the system. For something larger here's a Large Flywheel Installation at an electrical plant. What it's for is to store excess production. A little less waste is a good idea. And it provides storage to help buffer the peak usage.

One other type of power plant that stores excess product is a hydroelectric plant. Some are built with pumps to ciculate the water up and into the holding pond. This water is then used a 2nd time to make power. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics ensures that any storage has some amount of loss. Overall it may be better to take a small amount of loss and keep the generation of power within the optimial operational area.
 
faethor said:
Flywheels like other storage mechanisms - batteries, hydrogen,- are unlikely to create energy independence. They are storage not generation. They are used in systems to increase the efficency of the system.
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You are correct. When I was typing my brain was thinking will it encouraging the people to buy cars to reduce or get off the oil. Some people still think drill oil will reduces the oil price as Redrumloa still think it will.
rolleyes1.gif
My view, Drill all the oil you want and still will not solve the problem.
 
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