Brexit!! Yeah, it's a thing now..

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Wayne, Jun 24, 2016.

  1. Wayne

    Wayne
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    So, yesterday, there was the big vote by England to leave the European Union. Meanwhile, CNN reports this morning that Scotland is now considering voting to leave the UK and stay in the EU.

    Kinda of a surprise to hear both really, but any thoughts on that?

    Wayne
     
  2. Speelgoedmannetje

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    This man looks waay too excited for someone whom's future is unclear:

    [​IMG]

    unless he somehow managed to secure his personal future (TTIP/CETA lobby?)
     
  3. Robert

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    Neither were much of a surprise to me.
    I'm Scottish and voted (somewhat reluctantly) to remain.

    England (53.4%) and Wales (52.5%) voted to leave.
    Scotland (62%) and Northern Ireland (55.8%) voted to remain.

    In Scotland every region voted remain.

    FWIW, I don't think Scotland will vote to leave the UK regardless.
     
    #3 Robert, Jun 24, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
  4. ilwrath

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    Well, part of this may be my American ignorance showing... But I never really understood what the British people got out of being part of the EU. Sure, the politicians got lots of things... But it sure looked like the only thing the average British person got from the EU was more bills to pay, and worse conditions to do it in. A lot like how globalization helps America. (It definitely helps a few very powerful people... but the jury is still out on how much it helps the rest.)
     
  5. Robert

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    Some good things (e.g. implementation and protection of some workers rights) and some bad things (e.g. increased corporate power).
     
  6. Robert

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    For an added bonus today, we also have that arsehole Trump spouting pish just 20 miles or so down the road from my house.

    On the bright side, he was apparently greeted by this brick-toting Mariachi band called 'Juan Direction' after he landed:
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. FluffyMcDeath

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    Protection of workers? Is that why the French are currently so upset that Hollande is pushing through anti-worker legislation at the insistence of the EU? Better off out. Easier to fight a smaller closer government than a bigger one further away.
     
  8. Robert

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    Yes.
    Working Time Directive, for example, has seen improvements even to my own working conditions.

    Except the EU is not the government. Not even close.
    But you know that.

    As you are well aware, I'm no fan of the EU in it's current form but they have provided some protection from the UK government over the years and for that reason I'm disappointed with the result.

    On the other hand, I sincerely hope you are correct and that this will turn out to be the positive step you see it as.
    It's possible but, from what I've witnessed over the course of this ugly campaign, highly unlikely.
     
  9. JoBBo

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    In addition to what Robert wrote, environmental protection was a big deal. Back in the 70s and 80s, the United Kingdom was known as "the dirty man of Europe". I am exaggerating but imagine Flint / Michigan was a nation... Today, around 600 beaches in the UK meet clean water standards compared to less than 30 (!) that were designated as bathing waters in the mid-70s.

    Mind you, the UK governments tried every trick in the book to avoid having to abide by the EU's environmental laws... But courts eventually forced them to do the right thing. Currently, the UK is the 8th largest tourist destination in the world and foreign visitors spent 22 billion USD in the country in 2015 alone. I think it is fair to assume that if UK beaches were still covered with fecal matter as they were in the 70s when raw sewage was dumped into the sea (because it was "cost efficient" and unregulated), the number of visitors would be notably lower...

    Regarding the costs, the UK paid 11.6 billion USD to the EU if you subtract any rebates and money it received back. With a population of 64 million, the cost was around 180 USD annually (about 15 USD per month) and person. Statistically, the economic benefit of EU membership is estimated to be worth around 4.000 USD annually per UK household. Of course, if those economic rewards are not being fairly distributed, that is certainly a reason to be concerned. However, it would be a grave mistake to blame the EU for this as it is entirely up to the national governments to guide wealth distribution using tax as well other laws (if deemed necessary)...

    Besides the effects on Britain and Wales, you also have to consider what will happen to Northern Ireland, Scotland and Gibraltar now. At least over here, the Northern Ireland conflict was a constant presence in evening news programs during the 90s. Within the European Union, it did not matter too much if Northern Ireland belonged to the UK or Ireland as long as people were able to freely move between the north and south of the Irish island. After the UK leaves the EU, this conflict might unfortunately flare up again...

    Even though Robert says he is not convinced that Scotland will secede, other people are not so sure. As for Gibraltar, Spain already announced today that they would expect to take it back if the UK leaves the EU...

    One other thing to consider since you are American: Until now, when American, Canadian or Australian companies decided to the enter the large EU market, the United Kingdom was a prime destination for opening European headquarters / offices due to the shared language. For many businesses from English-speaking countries, the UK was the entry door to Europe. As the UK leaves the EU, this will change and quite a few existing as well as future jobs will be moved to the continent as a result.
     
    #9 JoBBo, Jun 24, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2016
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  10. FluffyMcDeath

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    Back in 1858 the Thames reached peak filth. Parliament resolved to clean it up - long before the EU. Mind you, that's because it stank and passed right in front of the Houses of Parliament, nonetheless - things can be changed outside of the EU as well as in it.

    I think back in the early days there was a lot to be said for the EU - much of which may have just been marketing. I was a fan initially but like all bureaucracies it has ossified and become aloof - and worse, it has been co-opted (if it wasn't in fact the initial intent) by powerful interests to work for more mercenary and less noble ends. Things need pruning from time to time to keep them vibrant.
     
  11. cecilia

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    in honor of the vote:

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. cecilia

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    and, as I was listening to the vote count last night, MY first thought was, THIS will inspire the Scots to get their independence. That way they can get in the EU, if they wish.
     
  13. FluffyMcDeath

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    Only the British could invade half the world then realise that they don't want to be invaded themselves.
    It's not really helpful to imply that all immigrants are the same. A large part of the Al Qaeda in Syria are "immigrants". A large part of the population of America are immigrants (ask the Natives how they feel about that).
    Some immigrants moved to Britain because they were attracted by the values and customs of Britain, and some came with skills and resources. Others came to get away from poverty and regressive cultures but did not intend to integrate, but to cleave to those cultures that are antithetical to British (and European) values which they hold to be wicked and abhorrent. Any country or organisation, club or even biological cell has to be discriminating about what it lets in and what it keeps out. We don't treat all fungus as equal when picking wild mushrooms. I wouldn't leave the door of my home open any more than I would ask to keep the door of my country open. It is as wrong to wholesale keep out foreigners as it it to wholesale let them in. Both positions are basically racist as you are treating people based on the group they belong to. Every decision should be made on an individual basis - who that person is and whether they want to become a member of your group or just benefit from you.
     
  14. cecilia

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  15. cecilia

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    you DO realize that meme is a joke, right?
     
  16. FluffyMcDeath

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    So are you saying it's meaningless? Are you saying there is no subtext whatsoever? Are you saying that anyone who sees some kind of veiled political criticism in it is making it up in their own mind and the creator of the meme had no political intent at all?
     
  17. FluffyMcDeath

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  18. cecilia

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    I'm saying you are overthinking this.

    it's funny because it's SORT OF TRUE, but it's not something I'm going to spend too much time worrying about
     
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  19. JoBBo

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    Do I have to post outrageous posts from members of the UK government now or can we just agree that individual opinions, as upsetting as they may be, are not representative of an entire institution or even economic and political system? :)

    No doubt. But, as far as common sense environmental protection laws are concerned, which, as I mentioned, can have immense positive economic effects, the United Kingdom does quite literally have an extremely "shitty" track record so the likelihood that things are going to improve or even just stay the same are rather grim ...
     
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  20. Robert

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    The Daily Mash:
     

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